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Brilliant Researchers - VanderLegion - 08-12-2013 03:50 PM

I feel that Brilliant Researchers is overpowered with the current implementation. If you're playing a long game, it's basically a required racial, or else you're going to find yourself FAR behind on tech. Might be different for a fast game (smaller empire, blitz, whatever), but for long ones it's a must. I tried a research build without it in a game with anthee and diebo where they have it and less research stuff (or maybe even slow thinkers? Not sure). I managed to get my second tech the turn they got their first with bonus, but after that quickly fell behind.

Right now, with being able to get a tech up to 3x the cost of what you researched, you can effectively get up to 4x research speed. So even a research build getting double the RP you are is going to fall far behind over time.

I think a solution that might work well is to limit it so you can only get a free tech of the same cost or less than the one you research. This would limit the bonus speed to no more than 2x the actual RP you're getting, so someone with a better research build might still be able to keep up/get ahead. It would also make it much more strategic in picking techs.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - Diebo - 08-13-2013 12:03 AM

This was suggested a little while ago:

http://chimerasw.com/starbaseorion/forums/showthread.php?tid=1925

I have to agree that for a long game, with few people, it seems to be mandatory.

I suggested the "buy one, get one of equal or lesser value free" approach as a possible solution in that early thread. The more I think about it, and the more time I've had to play with it, the better I like it.

Brilliant would still be powerful, but as VanderLegion points out, you wouldn't necessarily be out-competing someone who took the genius route for tech. I'd like to see those two sides of the coin balanced. 6 points for genius should roughly equal the tech research of 6 points for brilliant. You pass up more stuff, but you get to choose what you do take.

+1 for the change. It would be interested to test in Beta, at least.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - anthee - 08-13-2013 12:17 AM

+1

Right now, it's either Brilliant Researchers or a spy build. And I'm pretty sure that the former will always have the advantage when it's two players of equal skill, except on small maps.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - Diebo - 08-13-2013 01:03 AM

I haven't had much luck with the spy build lately. Especially against a science build, where they can more easily research colony security than a spy build can research cloaking.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - anthee - 08-13-2013 01:13 AM

A good spy build has money lenders and lots of cash. They will get every single leader they want since making money is not something that science builds excel at early on. That can give a dangerous early boost to them, particularly if they get an early Xalon and/or Terminifera.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - MiiiikeT - 08-13-2013 07:07 AM

This is another option I thought of,( though I like what vander is suggesting). How would it be if you could choose the 2nd tech that you would want. (Maybe equal or lesser value also rule). Maybe change BR back to only having a chance to get it instead of being guaranteed. That way you don't get tech you don't want, but also doesn't make BR as OP since you are not guaranteed the tech.
Just throwing that out there.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - Diebo - 08-13-2013 07:30 AM

(08-13-2013 07:07 AM)MiiiikeT Wrote:  This is another option I thought of,( though I like what vander is suggesting). How would it be if you could choose the 2nd tech that you would want. (Maybe equal or lesser value also rule). Maybe change BR back to only having a chance to get it instead of being guaranteed. That way you don't get tech you don't want, but also doesn't make BR as OP since you are not guaranteed the tech.
Just throwing that out there.

I'd LOVE to be able to choose the second tech. And whenever I really would like something, that generally means that it is a bit OP.

I really like the strategic value and flavor that 100 percent chance brings. 50% chance of buy one, get one free... Now we aren't talking a 6-point trait anymore. Which would be fine, too.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - Skins0815 - 08-14-2013 09:10 AM

+1 to the 100% chance of "buy one get a second for equal or lesser value." This feels like the right balance for two +6 traits. I also think this could make hybrid builds more viable, as right now it is just too advantageous to get both brilliant and borderline genius. I would love to experiment with some builds that have one or the other but not both.


RE: Brilliant Researchers - Sentar - 08-16-2013 04:57 AM

grr, lost a lengthy reply on this from yest -- lucky for the reader though... I'll get right to it here:

- it's been well established BR is OP (today's patch notwithstanding)

- IMHO, since Genius gets you most of the way there but does so in a more directed, and economically "fair" manner, BR is mostly a blunt, uninteresting and ultimately arbitrary feeling trait -- here's what I mean:

1) The trait doesn't stand up to "believability" -- a researcher doesn't discover a malaria vaccine and stumble onto high-speed pneumatic tube trains on accident in the process -- it's just weird to get a "bonus" tech, nevermind the problem of equal value, I just think its weird to end up with Colony Security when I was aimed at e.g. L3

2) Following the take away path to perfection, this trait seems ripe...

3) There's no equivalent build tech (and I wouldn't want one, but to make my point), you don't set out to build a frigate and get ACP built as a bonus -- but that's what BR suggests should happen in a sense -- i.e. it's nonsensical and doesn't scale across the logical categories.

4) Just a quick statement I could go on about: There's good random and there's bad random -- good random is a trait like Combat Pilots or Smugglers... traits w either/both subtlety or unpredictable impact/effect are what give SO its "texture" and "depth" -- the most interesting matches are through these dynamics that are potentially applied in a "novel" way, or even countered in a manner you didn't expect. BR doesn't pass the "good random" test, and it hits a high mark on "bad random" (see #1) test.

I have some more ideas about how to solve for this but my immediate solution would be to remove it altogether -- I suspect that will make the Research racial trait more impactful and a difference maker.

I want to post some ideas about other traits and primarily just modifications to existing ones that would go to deepen the game as I allude to in #4 -- but there a better tread(s) for that --however, merely to reinforce my points above a single example of what I mean: Leaders to be permanently on the auction block -- in recognizing some degree of loyalty perhaps it takes a significant bribe (and a raise) to get them to defect and join you, but all Leaders would be "in play" at any given time technically. If a Leaders gets passed up by everyone at first, they shouldn't vaporize, in "reality" of course they are at home sitting by the phone waiting for the phone to ring (albeit watching GoT and mowing down bags of Valurian Meat Chips) -- one could hire them at any point they are needed. This would add some cool decision factor to,the game where people are trying to build just the right team but not too soon.... I would keep the leader turns to fully join @ 5 and announce globally when they get hired --possibly including to whom (gossip travels faster than light). In terms of max #of Leaders maybe that's strictly limited only by budget -- in that sense we let galactic capitalism work its magic. Anyway gotta run let me know what you guys think about any of the above -- merely my 2c as always.

I will say it: SO is on a path to become the all-time king of the genre, and that's no small thing (in my book) -- the thoughtful involvement of everyone on Beta combined with Rocco's careful overall consideration and well-coupled communication with this community (the efficiency and effectiveness promised by a well-functioning representational democracy) combined with the benefits of the iOS platform is the vehicle to get it there. I feel very fortunate to be a part of it. Thanks for reading.

Now imagine what I mean by length reply!

✮ Sentar -- 1.22-130815.1151


RE: Brilliant Researchers - Diebo - 08-16-2013 06:32 AM

(08-16-2013 04:57 AM)Sentar Wrote:  1) The trait doesn't stand up to "believability" -- a researcher doesn't discover a malaria vaccine and stumble onto high-speed pneumatic tube trains on accident in the process -- it's just weird to get a "bonus" tech, nevermind the problem of equal value, I just think its weird to end up with Colony Security when I was aimed at e.g. L3

Oh, I dunno. It is a six-point trait, so you race is REALLY good at riffing off ideas and turning them into something else. Maybe you are looking into L3, and one of the brains realizes that they could improve colony security with a modification of laser technology... Seems plausible. And as a racial trait, there is probably full support for an idea being turned into a product.

(08-16-2013 04:57 AM)Sentar Wrote:  3) There's no equivalent build tech (and I wouldn't want one, but to make my point), you don't set out to build a frigate and get ACP built as a bonus -- but that's what BR suggests should happen in a sense -- i.e. it's nonsensical and doesn't scale across the logical categories.
Again - it is a racial trait/ability. And just imagine, as I said above, that the race fosters this brilliant development into parallel development. If you want realism... Why are we only studying one thing, and it takes years to research? Shouldn't we be investing a little bit into everything? It is made simple.

(08-16-2013 04:57 AM)Sentar Wrote:  4) Just a quick statement I could go on about: There's good random and there's bad random -- good random is a trait like Combat Pilots or Smugglers... traits w either/both subtlety or unpredictable impact/effect are what give SO its "texture" and "depth" -- the most interesting matches are through these dynamics that are potentially applied in a "novel" way, or even countered in a manner you didn't expect. BR doesn't pass the "good random" test, and it hits a high mark on "bad random" (see #1) test.
There is nothing random whatsoever about combat pilots. You move and turn faster. Very predictable.

If you mean that spending 2 points on pilots vs, say, a rich home world adds strategic depth (you are a better fighter, but you are worse at cranking out ships, so you may have a smaller fleet), then I would say that brilliant certainly does that. It is a second path to research.

In research, you can go genius, or brilliant (or neither, or both).

Genius: Pro, you get techs faster. Con, you miss techs.
Brilliant: Pro, you get techs slower. Con, you don't miss very many techs.
Add in broad field, narrow minded, and you have some options.
And you can take both, but at 12 points, you need to give up on industry, or food, or population growth, or... well, a lot of things.

I find brilliant to be very strategic. Not the best choice for a quick blitz, but for a longer game, it can be a nice path to follow. And more strategic (if less plausible) with the buy one, get the second of equal or lesser value free. It is kinda cool - do you go with Research Center 2, knowing you'll get colony infrastructure, or go with cloning, which gives you the chance of getting RC2.

A key to this game is research, and Roc has provided numerous paths to that end. The main thing I'd like to see is the second pass costing more so it isn't just one tech/turn once you research the first pass.

(08-16-2013 04:57 AM)Sentar Wrote:  I want to post some ideas about other traits and primarily just modifications to existing ones that would go to deepen the game as I allude to in #4 -- but there a better tread(s) for that --however, merely to reinforce my points above a single example of what I mean: Leaders to be permanently on the auction block -- in recognizing some degree of loyalty perhaps it takes a significant bribe (and a raise) to get them to defect and join you, but all Leaders would be "in play" at any given time technically. If a Leaders gets passed up by everyone at first, they shouldn't vaporize, in "reality" of course they are at home sitting by the phone waiting for the phone to ring (albeit watching GoT and mowing down bags of Valurian Meat Chips) -- one could hire them at any point they are needed. This would add some cool decision factor to,the game where people are trying to build just the right team but not too soon.... I would keep the leader turns to fully join @ 5 and announce globally when they get hired --possibly including to whom (gossip travels faster than light). In terms of max #of Leaders maybe that's strictly limited only by budget -- in that sense we let galactic capitalism work its magic.

The problem is that people drop everything to get leaders, and it just isn't fun if capitalism runs its course. RE: Availability. I just think those leaders are off in other galaxies, and swing by to check things out. They aren't just sitting around the phone. They are probably in the cloning centers in Alpha Centuri, building up clones for when they get shot up

Adding "assassinate" as a spy option would be fun.