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Trait Balance
10-04-2014, 12:49 AM
Post: #1
Trait Balance
I have been engaged in a number of team games lately and think that some of the traits could be better balanced to enhance team play (and they would have minimal to no effect on single player games).

Right now, some traits are global traits – they apply to all of the population on a world, even mixed species. I'd recommend more traits be restricted to the individual species, to the extent possible. I also recommend that some of the global traits be shared with allies. For example, if one ally has Galactic Navigators, all allies should get it as long as they are allied (and not just non-aggression). It only takes one Spock on a ship to provide that science boost. Presumably allies would be smart enough to have at least 1 navigator on a ship or to provide that technical expertise to their allies.

The same way, there are some traits that should be balanced away from global. Freethinking for example is probably better as a species than a global trait. Persnickety also. Right now, people with Shared IQ are gifting their population of Amazing Industrialists (without freethinking) to their allies with Freethinking and Persnickety. Shared IQ and Persnickety are not allowed in a single species because they are OP. In teams, we've figured this out and exploit it.

Here is the list of traits and my recommendations:

Farming: Species (no change)
Industry: Species (no change)
Science: Species (no change)
Money: Species (no change)
Fertility: Species (no change)
Gravity: Species (no change)
Huge Home: Species (no change)
Home Richness: Species (no change)

Galactic Navigators: Global (no change) but allow allies to act as if they have it as long as they are allied. You'll add navigators from allies to your ships.

Combat Pilots: Global (no change) but allow allies to act as if they have it as long as they are allied? Put your allies pilots in your ships.

Tolerant: Species (currently Global). This one might be harder to implement. If I have a non-tolerant ally world, just because I am an ally they shouldn't be able to farm on a barren world, and avoid maintenance penalties. Not sure how to implement? Allow farming if there are at least some tolerant species on a planet, and multiply maintenance cost by a fraction of tolerant/non-tolerant?

Freethinking: Species (currently Global). This one has room for abuse, and it makes more sense if the trait is linked to the species that has it. Hard to share freethinking with a species that isn't.

Natural Tinker. Species. This might be global now, I am not sure, but it should be limited to species. It is the species that tinkers. Just because you are Vulcan and are gifted or take over a planet full of Klingons doesn't mean that the Klingons will accept their new administrator's zeal for innovation and start tinkering around at work.

Robust Techies. Same as Tinkers.

Brilliant Researchers: Species (no change). Has room for abuse (encourages Nerd/Industry split in team games, but I don't have a good backstory to justify sharing with allies).

Broad Field: Global (no change). This one and narrow are hard, because in team games you could end up with more of another species than your own. If we leave it at global, we could at least say it is the governmental top-down directives to either focus broad or narrow that is driving it.
Narrow Field: see Broad Field.

Battle Hard: Global (no change). This one is hard too, as allies would share tech, but I am Ok with Global. I could also see it being shared with allies.

Shared IQ: Species (no change).

Persnickety: Species (change from Global). It is being abused in team games, allowing people to get around the stacking penalty that was enforced for individual play.

Charisma (species): No change.

Fantastic Engineers: Global (no change). Could see this one as being more of an ally trait, but I am guessing it takes an entire crew of engineering types to fix stuff. Or is it just one Scotty who knows how to fix stuff? Would be nice if it was shared with allies.

Highly Trained Smugglers: Global (no change).
Sanctioned Piracy: Global (no change).
Diplomacy: Global (no change).

What do you team players out there think? My goal is to design this to be more enjoyable for team play.

Also: Medical pop bonuses encourages players to gift planets to the researcher (or gift researchers to the industry build). What if medical wasn't a tech, but was a species-level 3(?) point trait? This would discourage the gifting of planets to maximize that bonus. Right now you want the research focused on the player with Brilliant to get that bonus. If they have all the researchers, and researchers grow pop at +100k/turn on all planets... well... gift your planets to the researcher to maximize that bonus. As a species-level trait, you would have to have 500 research conducted by this species to result in the growth bonus? Harder to deal with mixed-species science, I know...
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10-04-2014, 01:20 AM
Post: #2
RE: Trait Balance
I think these suggestions are excellent. I have been discussing this with Diebo, E45y and Anthee. These changes should enhance the 2v2 experience and close a few loopholes. Thanks for putting this into words so well Diebo.
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10-04-2014, 02:24 AM
Post: #3
RE: Trait Balance
RE: Allies get some of the global traits. There is precedence (and hence probably code) for temporary traits, in the form of leader bonuses. You can get cloning or CS2 tech temporarily. Getting Navigator temporarily could be similar.

Would be fun in a FFA to see what traits people could bring to the table. And to use diplomacy to cut off an alliance (maybe before a large fleet is incoming, to slow down someone who doesn't have navigator, or to reduce the strength of ships via battlehard/pilots). Would intensify diplomatic relationships = make them more interesting.
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10-07-2014, 04:20 AM
Post: #4
RE: Trait Balance
(10-04-2014 12:49 AM)Diebo Wrote:  Here is the list of traits and my recommendations:

Farming: Species (no change)
Industry: Species (no change)
Science: Species (no change)
Money: Species (no change)
Fertility: Species (no change)
Gravity: Species (no change)
Huge Home: Species (no change)
Home Richness: Species (no change)

Agree with all these, the easy ones! No pun intended.

Quote:Galactic Navigators: Global (no change) but allow allies to act as if they have it as long as they are allied. You'll add navigators from allies to your ships.

I don't like this one being shared. If you add allies to your ship, then, it should not go away if you become non allied. I vote to keep it as is.

Quote:Combat Pilots: Global (no change) but allow allies to act as if they have it as long as they are allied? Put your allies pilots in your ships.

I say no change to this one also.

Quote:Tolerant: Species (currently Global). This one might be harder to implement. If I have a non-tolerant ally world, just because I am an ally they shouldn't be able to farm on a barren world, and avoid maintenance penalties. Not sure how to implement? Allow farming if there are at least some tolerant species on a planet, and multiply maintenance cost by a fraction of tolerant/non-tolerant?


I don't think allied should matter, just, whether or not the specific pop are tolerant or not.

Quote:Freethinking: Species (currently Global). This one has room for abuse, and it makes more sense if the trait is linked to the species that has it. Hard to share freethinking with a species that isn't.

Totally agree!

Quote:Natural Tinker. Species. This might be global now, I am not sure, but it should be limited to species. It is the species that tinkers. Just because you are Vulcan and are gifted or take over a planet full of Klingons doesn't mean that the Klingons will accept their new administrator's zeal for innovation and start tinkering around at work.

Should be species if it isn't.

Quote:Robust Techies. Same as Tinkers.

Agreed

Quote:Brilliant Researchers: Species (no change). Has room for abuse (encourages Nerd/Industry split in team games, but I don't have a good backstory to justify sharing with allies).

Agreed

Quote:Broad Field: Global (no change). This one and narrow are hard, because in team games you could end up with more of another species than your own. If we leave it at global, we could at least say it is the governmental top-down directives to either focus broad or narrow that is driving it.
Narrow Field: see Broad Field.

Agreed

Quote:Battle Hard: Global (no change). This one is hard too, as allies would share tech, but I am Ok with Global. I could also see it being shared with allies.

I say non shared

Quote:Shared IQ: Species (no change).

Agreed

Quote:Persnickety: Species (change from Global). It is being abused in team games, allowing people to get around the stacking penalty that was enforced for individual play.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:Charisma (species): No change.

Agreed

Quote:Fantastic Engineers: Global (no change). Could see this one as being more of an ally trait, but I am guessing it takes an entire crew of engineering types to fix stuff. Or is it just one Scotty who knows how to fix stuff? Would be nice if it was shared with allies.

I vote leave as is

Quote:Highly Trained Smugglers: Global (no change).
Sanctioned Piracy: Global (no change).
Diplomacy: Global (no change).

All agreed

GC ID: E45y Rid3r
Season 1 Saturn Division Champion
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11-03-2014, 05:10 AM
Post: #5
RE: Trait Balance
Any news on these recommended trait balances making it into the next beta? It would be good to get a few sorted before the second season of the 2v2 league :-)
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11-03-2014, 05:47 AM
Post: #6
RE: Trait Balance
(11-03-2014 05:10 AM)Choc Wrote:  Any news on these recommended trait balances making it into the next beta? It would be good to get a few sorted before the second season of the 2v2 league :-)

I haven't had time to read this thread in depth, which is why I have not commented on it.

I'm not planning another SO update right away; you should anticipate playing the second season on the current ruleset.
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11-03-2014, 10:06 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 10:08 AM by Choc.)
Post: #7
RE: Trait Balance
That's cool. I'm sure we will work it out :-)

Thanks for clarifying Roc
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11-17-2014, 07:45 AM
Post: #8
RE: Trait Balance
I've not played 2v2 as yet so forgive me if this is a silly point to bring up, but when you suggest making some trait species dependent, do you mean specific to that one player?

If 2 allies are the same species (I'm assuming this is possible in 2v2) wouldn't this give them an unfair advantage over opponents who are not?
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11-17-2014, 01:39 PM
Post: #9
RE: Trait Balance
(11-17-2014 07:45 AM)Yojimbo252 Wrote:  I've not played 2v2 as yet so forgive me if this is a silly point to bring up, but when you suggest making some trait species dependent, do you mean specific to that one player?

If 2 allies are the same species (I'm assuming this is possible in 2v2) wouldn't this give them an unfair advantage over opponents who are not?

What he means is, some racial traits are "empire wide" while other racial traits are "population specific".

Amazing Industrialists is "population specific" in that population of that race gain +2 to industry, hence that bonus carries over regardless of who currently owns the populace.

Traits like Freethinking are "empire wide", meaning that they do not carry over with population and instead only affect your empire.

Thus, in a team game if you funnel all of the population with "population wide" advantages to the player with all of the "empire wide" advantages, you would gain the most benefit.
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11-18-2014, 07:41 AM
Post: #10
RE: Trait Balance
(11-17-2014 01:39 PM)rocco Wrote:  
(11-17-2014 07:45 AM)Yojimbo252 Wrote:  I've not played 2v2 as yet so forgive me if this is a silly point to bring up, but when you suggest making some trait species dependent, do you mean specific to that one player?

If 2 allies are the same species (I'm assuming this is possible in 2v2) wouldn't this give them an unfair advantage over opponents who are not?

What he means is, some racial traits are "empire wide" while other racial traits are "population specific".

Amazing Industrialists is "population specific" in that population of that race gain +2 to industry, hence that bonus carries over regardless of who currently owns the populace.

Traits like Freethinking are "empire wide", meaning that they do not carry over with population and instead only affect your empire.

Thus, in a team game if you funnel all of the population with "population wide" advantages to the player with all of the "empire wide" advantages, you would gain the most benefit.

That's fine I get that. I just wanted to ensure the suggestions were player specific and not species specific where allies could still share the benefit.
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