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Tech builds too powerful?
11-26-2014, 11:13 PM
Post: #11
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(11-26-2014 06:17 AM)Davabled Wrote:  
(11-25-2014 03:49 PM)anthee Wrote:  That would be a great tweak! Other tweaks which I think would be good:

- Make LGA -3 instead of -2.
- Make Medium HW -3 instead of -2.
- Make Charismatic cost only 1 point.
- Already mentioned above, but nerf Robust Techies down to 15% or 10%.

And regarding buildings, Orbital Labs need a complete overhaul. +10% to science from a tech that costs 1700 RP is laughable: compare to Sanctioned Sports which costs 1000 RP and gives +20% not just to science but to industry and farming as well. And Orbital Labs appear so late in the game anyway that they don't even get to pay back their RP cost.

-I can't speak to Low Gravity Affinity, but it might be worth looking into
-Medium Homeworld at -3 instead of -2 makes most sense with normal empire age, where it hurts the most, and also especially since it also means starting with less population, so I am in favor of your suggestion
-Charasmatic at 1 point would be a great step towards making a spying race viable
-Robust Techies should be decreased, probably to 10%, but...
-Orbital Labs 1/2 - I suggest keeping them the same, but a) include them into the Robust Techies equation, and b) have them also reduce the cost of passed techs by 5%/10%, non-cumulative

- Agree with Low Gravity -3. Premium on infrastructure warrants it.
- Medium Home is awful; the loss of 4 pop to start with hurts, and it is the only guaranteed terran you will find. If you take boomers you could replace the pop fast, but food is such an issue for boomers... At least -3. I could see -2 if the starting pop distribution was such that the terran had 12 pop and the other 2 planets were filled up so that it wasn't such a hit.
- Charismatic at 1 pt (and repulsive at 1?)... Hmmm... I could see it. SCIF tech has sort of replaced the need for Charismatic.
- Robust Techies - This one gets a lot of comment, and yes it could probably go down to 10 percent (or just get a simple cap, like +20/planet).
- Orbital Labs. I install them on big research planets if I get them, but don't search them out. I'd rather have star drive/fuel/weather. It would be nice if morale was added into the formula for labs. I could see instead of it being a built lab having it be a system-wide tech, so you don't need to install it/pay for maintenance. Research it, get an automatic bonus to science, like with Adv. Farming. It is more useful for second-pass research, when costs skyrocket. I suspect most people don't get it until they are close to second pass anyway. Keying off of Davabled, what if instead of a bonus to research, Labs cut the cost of second-pass in half (like broad-field). With Broad, second-pass would be quartered. It would become a must-have tech for second-pass play, which would mean giving up something more useful in the meantime.

And while we're on changes, I'm kinda liking the change to IPC. I could see it being installed on Cruisers, but am Ok with how it is. I am thinking that other heavy weapons maybe should be limited to bigger ships, too. Maybe Proton and plasma requires destroyer+.
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11-27-2014, 07:15 PM (This post was last modified: 11-27-2014 07:45 PM by General_Grr.)
Post: #12
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
Will be interesting to see what the data mining exercises come up with but a trait that I feel everyone is taking is

- Galactic Navigators. Make that more expensive to be more a hard choice.
- Shared Intelligence I also see in most builds

Cheers
I don't agree that Robust Techies should be decreased. I think it is fantastic that there is a viable alternative to all the production builds as we had before.

- my suggestion instead would be to increase point cost for Shared Intelligence that scales very well with Science build

Again will be cool to see what the data mining exercise gives Rocco
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12-05-2014, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2014 03:46 AM by sfatula.)
Post: #13
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(11-21-2014 06:03 AM)anthee Wrote:  Disagree about IMN making Old Fashioned too good. It takes a while to get to fast growth with only IMN even if you play a SI science build: in my recent experience, dropping BR for Fertile Biology instead of Old Fashioned is worth it, which goes to show the importance of early growth and well-used civic funding.

I agree with this.

Quote:Industry should have the edge on small to medium size maps: that is a sign of proper trait balancing. If they had the edge on big maps too (despite lots of time for R&D), that would be a sign of industry being too powerful. Science consistently beating industry on small to medium size maps would indicate the opposite, and although more testing is required there, it seems as if that might be the case now, meaning science in general might be in need of a nerf.

Exactly, industry should not have an advantage on larger maps, or be equal even. Science can now be tough on smaller maps from some games I played with NewRussian. Not sure if tougher, but, more than it used to be.


Orbital labs are pretty much useless as is. I see little reason to research them, as a bonus, sure, I guess you could still build them. But 10% is very weak.

I do agree with Grr that I also was tired of everyone having blitz / industry builds. The question is, has the pendulum swung the other way, i.e., can a science build reliably be beat on smaller maps. They can for sure be tough if played right.

Otherwise, agree with the trait cost suggestions.

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12-06-2014, 02:28 AM
Post: #14
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
I won one of my league games in Jupiter division with a science build (SI, old fashioned, BR) versus a blitz build on a small map. I figure that kind of a thing shouldn't be happening with two decent players playing against each other if the traits were balanced.

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12-06-2014, 03:03 AM
Post: #15
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(12-06-2014 02:28 AM)anthee Wrote:  I won one of my league games in Jupiter division with a science build (SI, old fashioned, BR) versus a blitz build on a small map. I figure that kind of a thing shouldn't be happening with two decent players playing against each other if the traits were balanced.

And I just lost a league game using a science build versus a boomer industry build on a large spiral map (adv. empire). Got swarmed by Nuke 2 fleet, didn't get ECM in time. I made some errors. It was a similar map and settings that Roc and I were playing when we were beta testing Industry vs Science, and one of the reasons that Robust Techies has 20 percent return. Sure, you could go 10 percent, but that isn't primarily what is driving the mid-to-late game science advantage. It is access to technology. Most of my industry comes from passives (EF, Robotics, PCM). Would be interesting to drop the automatic bonus from those (i.e., you have to have people on industry to take advantage of it, similar to how research works now). And maybe make the active bonus greater (e.g., PCM gives +3 industry but no bonus). Things to think about.

In my three league games, I won once with industry build (vs. industry), lost once with science build (vs. industry), and won once with science build (vs. hybrid). I'm playing another Boomer Industry vs Science, be interesting to see how that one turns out.

A number of versions back, industry was the only real option.
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12-06-2014, 04:46 AM
Post: #16
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(12-06-2014 03:03 AM)Diebo Wrote:  ... Robust Techies has 20 percent return. Sure, you could go 10 percent, but that isn't primarily what is driving the mid-to-late game science advantage. It is access to technology. Most of my industry comes from passives (EF, Robotics, PCM). Would be interesting to drop the automatic bonus from those (i.e., you have to have people on industry to take advantage of it, similar to how research works now). And maybe make the active bonus greater (e.g., PCM gives +3 industry but no bonus). Things to think about.

Interesting idea. Keep Robust Techies at 20%, cap it to 20 points per planet, and eliminate the 5/10/30 passive production from Efficient Factories and Planetary Core Mining. I think Robotics factory would have to remain passive, though.
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12-06-2014, 04:54 AM
Post: #17
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(12-06-2014 03:03 AM)Diebo Wrote:  A number of versions back, industry was the only real option.

This is key to me, I don't want to see industry again be the only real option! I am still not convinced yet that either cannot do well on smaller maps, still not sure science will always win. I recall NR trying to prove that to me, and, he lost. Perhaps it is more balanced now?

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12-06-2014, 05:14 AM
Post: #18
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
I will reiterate that I am planning on doing another balance update after the two leagues end; at which time, I will data mine the traits and compare the win percentages to see what needs attention.
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12-06-2014, 05:16 AM
Post: #19
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
Well, the 2v2 or 4v4 of course skew the data mining as team game traits do not reflect good 1v1 traits (if you are simply thinking of cost adjustments). So, hopefully, you are speaking of the 1v1. Or, perhaps you want to try and address both in different manners.

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01-07-2015, 02:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 11:14 PM by Sloth.)
Post: #20
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
Looking forward to the data mining analysis.

I'm with those who think the Robust Techies / Tinkerers balance is out of whack. In yet another league game, one of many Tinkerer vs Techies battle I've had, I'm getting 100 RP/ turn from my 2 points spent on Tinkerers. My production is 1,300/turn, so I would be getting 260 RP/ turn if Tinkerers were the mirror opposite of Techies, instead of based and capped on pop. 100 RP/turn vs 260! That's a stunning difference.

If Tinkerers is the baseline, and a tech build is getting 2.6 times the production that a production build is in tech, both for 2 points, then Techies should be a 5 (2.6x2) or 6 point trait....

Some options:

Make both Tinkerers and Techies 3 points, and also true mirror traits with 20% each.

Lower Tinkerers to 1 point, raise Techies to 3 points.

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