Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
v1.1.5 General Feedback
06-06-2012, 04:46 AM
Post: #11
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
No on the double cost of spy upkeep. Besides, that is just a bandaid to cover the real problems. There have been some great suggestions in the forums, lets talk about the strengths and weaknesses of those.

Writer and all around crazy person.
GC ID: falanor4421 *** Sandbox : falanor4421 (I think...) ***
Always looking for a game
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 04:51 AM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2012 04:56 AM by VanderLegion.)
Post: #12
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
(06-06-2012 04:46 AM)falanor4421 Wrote:  No on the double cost of spy upkeep. Besides, that is just a bandaid to cover the real problems. There have been some great suggestions in the forums, lets talk about the strengths and weaknesses of those.

Yah. Given the things people are complaining about for spies, doubling the upkeep wouldn't really do anything to change it. It'd just make it twice as expensive for both players, but doesn't change that you can still build as many as you can pay for.
One thing that might help with the extreme numbers of spies would be if your spies could kill multiple of your opponents spies per turn. Maybe the more spies you have, the more chances you have to kill opposing spies, so if you both have 100 spies, they could start dying off faster and keep it from getting to ridiculous numbers. That change would apply equally to offense or defense. It'd give defenders the chance to potentially kill off a bunch of the offenses spies and give them breathing space, but on the other side the offense has the chance to kill off a bunch of defensive spies to increase their chance of success.

The downside I suppose is that if you have a ton of spies and your opponent only has a few, they'd never have a chance to catch up if you kill all their spies repeatedly. Maybe your chance of killing opposing spies increases the more spies your OPPONENT has (the more they have, the more chances you have to notice someone doesn't belong), still dependent on how many you have to a degree as well? So if your opponent has 100 spies, maybe its possible for you to kill up to 10 per turn, but you have to have at least 10 (or maybe double that many or somehting?) spies of your own to be able to kill that many, if you only have 5 then that's the max you can kill?

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 05:01 AM
Post: #13
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
I don't think I like that. I think it would still perpetuate the snowball effect of spying that we are seeing now.

Honestly, the best bet to fix spying will probably be to 1) have a hard spy cap that can be increased with spy training facilities or some other means and 2) have spies be able to target things, like other spies, specific technology, disrupting technology, specific hull classes, specific name classes of ships, star bases, marine barracks, leaders, etc.

Writer and all around crazy person.
GC ID: falanor4421 *** Sandbox : falanor4421 (I think...) ***
Always looking for a game
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 05:02 AM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2012 05:25 AM by VanderLegion.)
Post: #14
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
I actually really like the second idea there. Set it up so you can kill up to say 10% of the opponent's spies in a single turn (though that doesn't mean you WILL, just possible, same as you aren't guaranteed to kill a spy on a given turn now), but you can't kill more than half or a quarter or something of the number of spies you currently have yourself. That way its not just dependent on one player or the others number of spies, but varies with both, and as I said, the more spies you both get, the faster spies can potentially be dying so you don't get to ridiculous numbers.

It'd also promote more fluctuation in the number of spies each player has, so instead of it just getting to 1 player has 50 more spies than his opponent and cloaking so he has 100% chance of success, that could be true one turn, then he could lose 10 spies the next turn and be back down to an 80% chance, then maybe he kills 5 of his opponents defensive spies and goes back up to 90%, etc.
(06-06-2012 05:01 AM)falanor4421 Wrote:  I don't think I like that. I think it would still perpetuate the snowball effect of spying that we are seeing now.

I really don't think it would (the second idea), since the more spies you get, the more you can lose, and if you're building 1 or 2 per turn, but you can lose 10 or 15, that's a net loss, while you can't kill nearly as many of you ropponents per turn if you have a lot more spies and they're trying to build up to defend.

Edit: If one player has 100 offensive spies, and the other player has 40 defensive, using 1/10th (opponents killed) and 1/2 (of your max) for the numbers, then the defensive player would be able to kill 10 spies in a turn, while the offensive player would only be able to kill 4. That's a net win for the defense. The bigger the difference in numbers of spies, the better off for the defense. 140 vs 40, offense has 100% chance. Assuming both sides managed to kill the max possible, offense loses 14 spies, defense loses 4 spies, offense now has a 90% chance.

Another edit: Also, you could make the chance to kill an opponent's spy not dependent on the number of spies you have, so the offense doesn't get a bigger advantage there. Maybe for each spy you could possibly kill, you get a % chance to kill that spy, regardless of the number of spies you have. SO if you have the potential to kill 10 spies, and it's a 20% chance to kill an opponent's spy (just picking a random nubmer for chance to kill), then it checks each of those 10 individually at a 20% chance. You could even give defenders a higher chance of killing opposing spies, as you're more likely to notice other peoples spies in your own territory than a spy is to notice counter spies when he's out of his element.

Quote:Honestly, the best bet to fix spying will probably be to 1) have a hard spy cap that can be increased with spy training facilities or some other means and 2) have spies be able to target things, like other spies, specific technology, disrupting technology, specific hull classes, specific name classes of ships, star bases, marine barracks, leaders, etc.

My problem with a hard spy cap is that it VASTLY favors the defender. If you have a hard cap and one person plays a spy build that's specifically designed to use spying as their main offense, but there's a hard cap so their opponent can get just as many spies once they know they need it, that completely shuts down your entire build.
A change like I'm outlining above would also probably require a much higher chance of killing spies, as right now it doesn't seem to happen very often, so the odds of killing more than 1 in a turn would be even lower, unless there was one check to see if you killed any spies, then a second to determine how many were killed.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2012 06:20 AM by falanor4421.)
Post: #15
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
Vander, I don't see your objection as being an issue, since any spy cap would also scale with number of planets and the number of spy academies you had.
This could also be simultaneously implemented with the spy killing you have in mind.

The problem I have with your fix is that is very one dimensional and is another form of a bandaid. While my idea isn't perfect I believe it is flexible enough to fix most issues, especially if coupled with your idea and spy targeting.

Writer and all around crazy person.
GC ID: falanor4421 *** Sandbox : falanor4421 (I think...) ***
Always looking for a game
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 06:36 AM
Post: #16
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
What about having the spies or agencies passively generating espionage points. The more you have the more points you generate.

You subtract defending espionage points and your net score is what you have to play with. Depending on mission the cost of espionage points will wary.

- important point is that as soon as you have carried out your mission your points get down to zero and you will slowly accumulate more points until you are ready for next mission.

The advantage as I see with above solution is that a defender can get some time to build up a defense if he invests in it. Also it will be diminishing return as the defenders espionage points will not be reset (if they don't carry out offensive operations themselves)

Let me know what you think

Cheers
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 07:05 AM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2012 07:06 AM by VanderLegion.)
Post: #17
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
(06-06-2012 06:19 AM)falanor4421 Wrote:  Vander, I don't see your objection as being an issue, since any spy cap would also scale with number of planets and the number of spy academies you had.

Sure, a spy cap would scale with number of planets and number of academies, but again, if I'm playing against someone who's spying, I'll jsut build academies on every planet I have and colonize more planets if I need to. And when I play a spy build (at least in the current implementation), I generally end up with LESS planets than my opponent, which means they'd have a higher cap than I would, so I'd pretty much just be screwed...
(06-06-2012 06:36 AM)General_Grr Wrote:  What about having the spies or agencies passively generating espionage points. The more you have the more points you generate.

You subtract defending espionage points and your net score is what you have to play with. Depending on mission the cost of espionage points will wary.

- important point is that as soon as you have carried out your mission your points get down to zero and you will slowly accumulate more points until you are ready for next mission.

The advantage as I see with above solution is that a defender can get some time to build up a defense if he invests in it. Also it will be diminishing return as the defenders espionage points will not be reset (if they don't carry out offensive operations themselves)

Let me know what you think

Cheers

Defender's points in that system would HAVE to reset somehow. If they just kept building up after the offensive player got off a couple of attacks they'd never be able to catch up again.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 07:53 AM
Post: #18
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
Good point Vander, if we look at below scenarios

SCENARIO 1
Attacker generate: 5 espionage points / turn
Defender generate: 0 espionage points / turn

Cost of Espionage Mission 10.
2,4,6,8,10,12 ... (that would be 50 missions in a normal game that lasts 100 turn)

SCENARIO 2
Attacker generate: 10 espionage points / turn
Defender generate: 5 espionage points / turn

Cost of Espionage Mission 10.
- 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64... (that would be 6 missions in a normal game)


So the penalty of underinvesting or not investing at all in espionage would be severe with 50 espionage missions in a game. However maybe 6 missions in a game where the defender is only generating half the points are too few, maybe it should be 12 instead in a normal game? I am not sure, I just feel that the linear model used now is not working.

Cheers!
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 08:08 AM
Post: #19
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
I may be in the minority on this (since a lot of people have complained about it and suggested alternatives, such as your idea of generating spy points from a agent facility, or facilities passively producing spies every x turns or something), but I actually LIKE that spying requires you to actively build the spies to get the benefit out of them. It means that if you really want to do a spy focused build, you have to sacrifice elsewhere to build the spies to do so.

When I'm playing a spy build, I generally have less planets than my opponent because I'm pumping out spies to get ready instead of building colony ships. I have less combat ships, because again, my homeworld is busy producing spies unless I've gotten another couple of planets with enough production to build them quickly. My spy build basically leaves me behind my opponent on everything (except perhaps money, until I get enough spies out to drop my income at least).

I'm playing a game against dawgs4ever right now that I played my spy build and I'm in the process of losing because I couldn't get enough spies out quickly enough to shut down his production to the point of being able to get in to win. I was too busy trying to get enough spies out from my homeworld to steal the tech I needed/sabotage enough stuff to slow him down, but I never got any other worlds that were good enough so it backfired and I got stuck with only a few planets and no military while he was getting ships out (and won gorzhons and mister x).

At this point, he's built up a bunch of spies of his own and is sabotaging me back (dunno if he has some on defense, some on offense, or all on d). He also has FAR more planets than me to produce spies/ships from, and the only reason I have decent production is cause I was able to steal it from him. The only reason I haven't actually LOST yet is because I have the bunny on my homeworld (the sabotage protection is really nice, especially when you only have a few systems so it kicks in fairly often). At this point though, it's only a matter of time until he gets a big enough fleet built up to kick down the burrow and win.

The problem with a passive system like several people have suggested is that it means I can go build up agent training camps on all my planets to start pumping out spies, or spy points, or whatever the system was, then go right back to my normal play of expanding, building up a fleet, etc. I'd basically get all the benefits of spying without it's biggest drawback.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2012, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2012 08:17 AM by Bruin.)
Post: #20
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
Without going into too much detail I'm nervous about any idea that starts to increase the death rate of spies too much. It would be brutal for the person with less spies in most cases (and in the cases where it is more balanced it would still provide a going-forward bonus to the person with the stronger spy network making it easier for them to hold the advantage).

Also not a fan of scenarios where you have to build something like five spies a turn for much of any reason other than reponding to a spying opponent who you failed to recognize in time (or because you're focusing your own resources on a spying strategy).

I like the idea of buildings supporting a spy network in some way very much. On the other hand, the notion of anything tied to empire size, planet quantity, or CP concerns me. A kingdom should be able to launch a spy offensive or respond to a spy threat without concern of its size (beyond the fact that larger kingdoms already enjoy an advantage due to resources and production, which is fine).

Perhaps the spy equation could be simplified so as to provide variety beyond the simple 100-spy-variance formula currently in place, but I'm not sure how much that would really matter in most games where 100 spies tend not to be built, let along enough that the simplicity of this formula starts to fall apart completely.

Oh, and the AI. Ideas should probably take multiplayer games against the AI into account. It is pretty easy for something balanced in 1 vs. 1 gameplay to take on a completely different reality when next to three Hard AIs.

I definitely think the spy buildings could contribute something positive to the empire beyond the ability to build spies. There's potential in that. Also potential in building upgrades.

GCID: Bruin; Sandbox: Bru-test-in
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | Starbase Orion | Return to Top | Return to Content | Lite (Archive) Mode | RSS Syndication