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v1.1.5 General Feedback
06-08-2012, 07:47 AM
Post: #31
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
(06-08-2012 06:10 AM)37ddV Wrote:  Perhaps something like if you are defending with X amount of spys. You gain X% per turn to kill an offensive spy trying to spy on you. With that added and knowing your defending spys also decrease the chance of their spys that should surly be enough. This way someone with 50 offensive spy against 30 defensive spy would mean they have a 20% chance of spying each turn while the defender has a 30% chance of killing one spy per turn. And say if there's noone spying on you then you can't kill enemy defending spys.

My problem is that being able to kill spy per turn simply isn't enough. If your opponent has 100 spies, even if you kill 1 a turn it's gonna take a long time for it to make much of a difference. And that's assuming they aren't still BUILDING spies. If you start killing spies frequently, it's trivial for the offensive player to just build more, and you can build several (or more if you really want) per turn, so who really cares if you lose 1 when you built 3 or 4?

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06-08-2012, 05:19 PM
Post: #32
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
The spy firing seems to work great! It's very helpful!

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06-09-2012, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2012 10:44 AM by VanderLegion.)
Post: #33
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
Not sure if this is intended or not, but if you've scouted an opponent's system (so you can see what planets are in it), you can always see after that whether they have a leader in said system or not. Currently it's the easiest way to know where they have the Easter Bunny, just scout all the planets you can reach, then you can just select the planet in the system and see if there's a leader there. Means you can also tell as soon as a leader LEAVES a planet, since they no longer show up, so again, if they have the bunny on a planet and leave, you can see as soon as he's left if you're watching.

Works for Magistrate X as well, even though the system doesn't show as theirs, if you've scouted it in the past, you can still select the system and the planets themselves show up as the player they belong to, and you can select them to see where X is and how many buildings they have on each planet (population shows max possible, but structure capacity shows empty slots, so if you know the max for the planet size, you can deduce how many buildings they have, not counting ICI, works on any planet you've scouted).
^ This is true in 1.1.4 as well, jsut never thought about it when I was on here to post it...

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06-09-2012, 02:20 PM
Post: #34
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
So thats how you avoided the Bunny when I had him in a couple of our games!

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06-09-2012, 02:37 PM
Post: #35
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
(06-09-2012 02:20 PM)falanor4421 Wrote:  So thats how you avoided the Bunny when I had him in a couple of our games!

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06-09-2012, 04:08 PM
Post: #36
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
(06-06-2012 05:01 AM)falanor4421 Wrote:  I don't think I like that. I think it would still perpetuate the snowball effect of spying that we are seeing now.

Honestly, the best bet to fix spying will probably be to 1) have a hard spy cap that can be increased with spy training facilities or some other means and 2) have spies be able to target things, like other spies, specific technology, disrupting technology, specific hull classes, specific name classes of ships, star bases, marine barracks, leaders, etc.

Hi all. Not sure if I can really post here since I'm not part of the beta test but... I couldn't resist. Maybe Falanor's idea of a "hard" spy cap should be something more of a soft soy cap. The thing I really enjoy about this game is that you can't have or do everything - guns or butter - type decisions. You could have an effective "soft" spy cap.

Every spy past the first one works a little less than the one before it. You're still paying the upkeep for a new spy, but not getting the full "1 point" for the spy. Now what that ratio is, that's a game balance decision above my pay grade but something like the frist spy gives you 1, the second gives you .99, the third gives you .98 etc... so that when you are adding spies past 50, they are giving you less than 1/2 a spy worth of benefit - but still clicking you for negative credits per turn. So you want to make another 50 spies... ok.. but your getting a much less marginal benefit than the first 50.

This should be the same ratio for offense or defense.

Of course there should always be a benefit for any spy - never 0.0 so maybe at least .01 or .02 or something once you get way out on the curve.

For an example.

Each spy reduces by .02 so... after 25 spies I have a "total" spy rating of

1 + .98 + .96 + .94 etc.... or 19.5 (something close to that)

After 50 spies I have a total spy rating of 26

Different techs or features could effect this "decline rate" per spy - effectivelty increases you spy points.

Everything else stays the same (difference in spy points etc.)

So If I have 50 spies and you have 10...

My spy rating is 26
Your's is 9.1 (1 + .98 +.96 +.94 etc.)

I have a 16.9 percent chance of a spy event. (before it would be 40%)

If I take my spies up to 100 my spy rating would be around 40 and I would have a 31% chance per turn for an event. The defensive player could catch up quickly because each defensive spy adds to his spy rating a little faster than the .02 of each spy for me past 100.

etc. etc.

The key spy techs or leaders just change the dimishing returns rate. So If I have a big spy network - Say 100 spies... and I get a tech or leader that changes the dimish rate to .01 instead of .02 and bang - a big jump in my spy rating. This allows a solid strategy of spy build but not overwhelming.

Ok that's it - I'll be quite now. Smile
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06-10-2012, 09:11 AM
Post: #37
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1!

(06-09-2012 04:08 PM)BogusRogus Wrote:  
(06-06-2012 05:01 AM)falanor4421 Wrote:  I don't think I like that. I think it would still perpetuate the snowball effect of spying that we are seeing now.

Honestly, the best bet to fix spying will probably be to 1) have a hard spy cap that can be increased with spy training facilities or some other means and 2) have spies be able to target things, like other spies, specific technology, disrupting technology, specific hull classes, specific name classes of ships, star bases, marine barracks, leaders, etc.

Hi all. Not sure if I can really post here since I'm not part of the beta test but... I couldn't resist. Maybe Falanor's idea of a "hard" spy cap should be something more of a soft soy cap. The thing I really enjoy about this game is that you can't have or do everything - guns or butter - type decisions. You could have an effective "soft" spy cap.

Every spy past the first one works a little less than the one before it. You're still paying the upkeep for a new spy, but not getting the full "1 point" for the spy. Now what that ratio is, that's a game balance decision above my pay grade but something like the frist spy gives you 1, the second gives you .99, the third gives you .98 etc... so that when you are adding spies past 50, they are giving you less than 1/2 a spy worth of benefit - but still clicking you for negative credits per turn. So you want to make another 50 spies... ok.. but your getting a much less marginal benefit than the first 50.

This should be the same ratio for offense or defense.

Of course there should always be a benefit for any spy - never 0.0 so maybe at least .01 or .02 or something once you get way out on the curve.

For an example.

Each spy reduces by .02 so... after 25 spies I have a "total" spy rating of

1 + .98 + .96 + .94 etc.... or 19.5 (something close to that)

After 50 spies I have a total spy rating of 26

Different techs or features could effect this "decline rate" per spy - effectivelty increases you spy points.

Everything else stays the same (difference in spy points etc.)

So If I have 50 spies and you have 10...

My spy rating is 26
Your's is 9.1 (1 + .98 +.96 +.94 etc.)

I have a 16.9 percent chance of a spy event. (before it would be 40%)

If I take my spies up to 100 my spy rating would be around 40 and I would have a 31% chance per turn for an event. The defensive player could catch up quickly because each defensive spy adds to his spy rating a little faster than the .02 of each spy for me past 100.

etc. etc.

The key spy techs or leaders just change the dimishing returns rate. So If I have a big spy network - Say 100 spies... and I get a tech or leader that changes the dimish rate to .01 instead of .02 and bang - a big jump in my spy rating. This allows a solid strategy of spy build but not overwhelming.

Ok that's it - I'll be quite now. Smile

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06-10-2012, 03:20 PM
Post: #38
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
(06-10-2012 09:11 AM)falanor4421 Wrote:  +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1!

So, in essence, +6.

These are the days of miracle and wonder, this is the long distance call. The way the camera follows us in slow mo, the way we look to us all. The way we look to a distant constellation that's dying in a corner of the sky. These are the days of miracle and wonder, and don't cry, baby, don't cry.
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06-17-2012, 02:48 PM
Post: #39
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
(06-06-2012 02:38 AM)VanderLegion Wrote:  Spying DOES have diminished returns, it's just in regards to # of offensive spies vs # of defensive spies as opposed to just your own. If your opponent has 2 spies and you have 3 spies, when you build a new one it ups your chance of success from 1% to 2%. That doubles your chance of success. If you have 101 spies and build 1 more to 102 (while your opponent still has 2 spies), it ups your chance from 99% to 100%, which is an increase of only 1/99 in your overall chance of success.

That's the definition of linear. Ignore for a moment the offensive vs defensive part and assume your opponent has zero defensive spies. If you have 1 spy, you get a 1% chance of success. If you have 50 spies, you have 50% chance of success, or 50 times the benefit for 50 times the cost.

Sure going from 1->2 spies "doubles" your chance of success while going from 49->50 is only something like a 2% increase, but that's just a confusing way of looking at it - it is still all linear. Just like the first guy you assign to industry increases your industry input "infinitely", the second doubles it, the the 11th only by 10%, but each guy gives the same absolute amount. Similarly, each Orb lab gives 15 research, so it's a linear effect, even though the same "relatively less" each time applies. When you can invest in something like that, you get exponential growth (as long as the return is the same currency as what you put in - with orb labs it isn't because you put in production and you get out science).

All the non-spy examples, however, have a natural cap, and often diminishing returns before that in practice - you can only build each building once on each planet, there are only so many planets to colonize, the planets have a maximum population, there is a CP limit for ships, and so on.

Spies don't have any diminishing returns, and the cap, at 100% is so high that once you hit it, you have probably won unless the opponent has a fleet bearing down on your home system. The bottom line is that if it is worth it to build 1 spy, it's worth it to build 100. That makes it inherently hard to balance. If you nerf spies too much, 0 will be the optimal amount, but if not, all spies, all the time, is best. That's unlike other things, where you only have to make sure the first one is worth it at some point, and that there is some kind of cap or diminishing return, and the thing will naturally balance itself out.

Things like the contact rating help nerf spies, but don't change the linear aspect. Suggestions like increased upkeep for each spy would work great. Having defense not just be (offsensive-defensive), but depend at least partly on the ratio offensive/defensive would help a lot (since as offensive spy numbers increased, you need fewer defensive spies to hold the ratio constant).

Quote:Anything after 100 spies more than your opponent (or 50 if you have cloaking and they don't hvae csf) doesn't do a thing, it's just a waste of production and money.

Definitely - so it's linear to the cap. The cap is too high though. 1 event/turn is devastating. The cap doesn't really matter for tech - at 20% chance, you'll pretty much be able to get all techs your opponent researches.

Quote:The problem you guys have with it isn't a lack of diminished returns, it's a lack of any controls preventing you from HAVING a thousand spies if you really want to (other than maintenance fees maybe). I don't think I've ever had a game where I built more than 100-150 spies. Even when I was specifically playing a spy race.

It's the linear aspect that is problematic. Diminishing returns is just one way of solving that. A lower cap on success % or a different defensive mechanic could work as well. Effectively removing spies by nerfing them enough would be another option, but probably not as satisfying.
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06-22-2012, 03:47 AM
Post: #40
RE: v1.1.5 General Feedback
All this talk of nerfing spys would make spying useless. No one would dare play spy builds. ATM I still feel that spy builds are underpowered. And has yet to see an effective spy build. Spying means less expansion, less tech, less everything and usually get zerged fast and overpowered.
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