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Combat Primer
08-18-2012, 12:05 AM
Post: #21
RE: Combat Primer
(08-17-2012 11:37 PM)VanderLegion Wrote:  
(08-17-2012 02:50 PM)37ddV Wrote:  Well... proton tropedos > plasma. My super mammoth fully suited with tropedos and 3 battleships with tropedos did the job.

Only if you catch your opponent unaware. If i know my opponent is doing missiled i stavk ecm. Even if i dont know that, once i get to mammoths ill rrequently stack em instead just in case

I have been playing a fun "game-within-a-game" on a MP game where we had both built up huge systems but it was pretty clear that I was going to win. Rather than do that, we decided to each build up fleets of given specs and have them go at it. So 20 mammoths, or 100,000 credits, or only frigates, that sort of thing.

It started off a bit like Rock (Proton), Paper (Plasma), Scissors (Ion). At first we were mostly using Plasma and Ion, and then I built a fleet with all proton. Absolute victory, lost maybe 2 ships to their 20 mammoth. Wow, powerful. That is where stacked ECM comes in, but you really need about 5 to do the job. Which leaves not that much room for engines or armor or bulk, which makes a plasma build hard.

We switched to frigates with 500 credit limit per ship, and they got slaughtered by plasma. 100 ships against each other, and 2 proton would die, while all of the opponent's ships died. Not enough cash to buy ECM.

Now we are playing with mixed fleets, spending some set amount of credits (100,000 currently). We are both so scared of Proton that most of our ships have decent ECM built in (or mass PDS even works).

I love plasma, but I haven't figured out a way to make it work with Proton on board. Too many demands for those few slots when you need 5 ECM. So I have been going a mix of Ion, Proton boats, and even some really cheap laser III frigates with all PDS (which can actually chase down surviving plasma ships but are still super-cheap).

Observations about this mini-game:

1. It would be fantastic to be able to target a ship size (scout, battleship, cruiser, etc.). Not just largest or smallest.
2. It would be fantastic to be able to target a ship by damage type (long range, medium range, short range, torpedo; presence/absence of weapon type: Gauss (+/-), Ion (+/-), Plasma (+/-), etc.).
3. It would be fantastic if the ships were a max of 10-20 wide and after that went deep. If it was done intelligently, even better (put ships with mostly laser/ion damage close-range first, plasma middle/torps back).
4. It would be fantastic if your option to target a specific ship could apply to a specific ship type, followed by a more general command. So target torpedo containing ships first, then keep long range, target closest. Right now you have to target a specific ship then revert to more general command. Very cumbersome with large fleets.
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08-18-2012, 12:29 AM
Post: #22
RE: Combat Primer
Have you try fast small ships with ion pluse cannons vs bigger ships with protons?
If you want to stack pds, usually I build destoryers with fully stack pds and set them to follow my mammoths or w/e.
Also have you try sending frigates in to attack the proton ships for a few turns? Usually send one frigate in, have another one turn away and keep doing that and see if they run out of ammo?

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08-18-2012, 01:37 AM
Post: #23
RE: Combat Primer
(08-18-2012 12:05 AM)Diebo Wrote:  
(08-17-2012 11:37 PM)VanderLegion Wrote:  
(08-17-2012 02:50 PM)37ddV Wrote:  Well... proton tropedos > plasma. My super mammoth fully suited with tropedos and 3 battleships with tropedos did the job.

Only if you catch your opponent unaware. If i know my opponent is doing missiled i stavk ecm. Even if i dont know that, once i get to mammoths ill rrequently stack em instead just in case

I have been playing a fun "game-within-a-game" on a MP game where we had both built up huge systems but it was pretty clear that I was going to win. Rather than do that, we decided to each build up fleets of given specs and have them go at it. So 20 mammoths, or 100,000 credits, or only frigates, that sort of thing.

It started off a bit like Rock (Proton), Paper (Plasma), Scissors (Ion). At first we were mostly using Plasma and Ion, and then I built a fleet with all proton. Absolute victory, lost maybe 2 ships to their 20 mammoth. Wow, powerful. That is where stacked ECM comes in, but you really need about 5 to do the job. Which leaves not that much room for engines or armor or bulk, which makes a plasma build hard.

If you're going up against proton torpedoes and stack ECM, you don't NEED the slots for armor or engines. Realistically, unless both players are doing plasma, you don't need armor or bulkheads on plasma ships, just engines to keep out of range of their closer range weapons. If both players go plasma, then you don't need the engines/thrusters because you both want long range anyway, so you'll do better with the armor.

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08-18-2012, 04:48 AM (This post was last modified: 08-18-2012 04:55 AM by Diebo.)
Post: #24
RE: Combat Primer
(08-18-2012 12:29 AM)37ddV Wrote:  Have you try fast small ships with ion pluse cannons vs bigger ships with protons?
If you want to stack pds, usually I build destoryers with fully stack pds and set them to follow my mammoths or w/e.
Also have you try sending frigates in to attack the proton ships for a few turns? Usually send one frigate in, have another one turn away and keep doing that and see if they run out of ammo?

Small fast vs Proton - each proton does 54 damage, and small ships pop easily. Fast missile launcher... I have tried a bunch of small laser with PDS, and that has been working Ok. Could try stacking an Ion.

RE: Destroyers with PDS. I have been using frigates with PDS intead (cheaper). "set to follow mammoth" is really hard when you have a huge fleet. So mammoth goes in for charge close, weakest and so do the PDS (assuming that they'll be in the mix that way anyway).

We have been doing all battle on an empty system in one turn, so no opportunity to do the "run out of ammo". Would be different in PVP normal. Interesting to consider - we could stretch it out so that the battle is at a set place, but we can come to the table with as much of the fleet as we want, and battle goes until there are no survivors. I am guessing there would be a lot of ECM, PDS, and retreating Proton Boats.
(08-18-2012 01:37 AM)VanderLegion Wrote:  
(08-18-2012 12:05 AM)Diebo Wrote:  
(08-17-2012 11:37 PM)VanderLegion Wrote:  
(08-17-2012 02:50 PM)37ddV Wrote:  Well... proton tropedos > plasma. My super mammoth fully suited with tropedos and 3 battleships with tropedos did the job.

Only if you catch your opponent unaware. If i know my opponent is doing missiled i stavk ecm. Even if i dont know that, once i get to mammoths ill rrequently stack em instead just in case

I have been playing a fun "game-within-a-game" on a MP game where we had both built up huge systems but it was pretty clear that I was going to win. Rather than do that, we decided to each build up fleets of given specs and have them go at it. So 20 mammoths, or 100,000 credits, or only frigates, that sort of thing.

It started off a bit like Rock (Proton), Paper (Plasma), Scissors (Ion). At first we were mostly using Plasma and Ion, and then I built a fleet with all proton. Absolute victory, lost maybe 2 ships to their 20 mammoth. Wow, powerful. That is where stacked ECM comes in, but you really need about 5 to do the job. Which leaves not that much room for engines or armor or bulk, which makes a plasma build hard.

If you're going up against proton torpedoes and stack ECM, you don't NEED the slots for armor or engines. Realistically, unless both players are doing plasma, you don't need armor or bulkheads on plasma ships, just engines to keep out of range of their closer range weapons. If both players go plasma, then you don't need the engines/thrusters because you both want long range anyway, so you'll do better with the armor.

Yeah, I normally go 5 ECM, 3 engine, 3 thruster, 1 Shield IV on mammoth plasma boats. The time I went 100 percent plasma, he did too and he had armor and bulkhead (and normally does more than I do) and he won. I'll continue to experiment. Winning is always a lot easier if you know what you are going to be up against...
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08-18-2012, 05:24 AM
Post: #25
RE: Combat Primer
There's a reason I'm willing to pay pretty much any amount I have to in order to get X. Even better if I can get the twins as well...

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08-18-2012, 05:55 AM
Post: #26
RE: Combat Primer
This is one reason why I think missile boats should get back half their ammo between turns. It would allow them to not be completely useless, but still give a penalty for reloading. Lets face it, you might not be able to reload all of your rounds between combat, but you'll be working getting SOME ammo in your launchers.

Two ideas for it
1) Lets say a ship has 10 rounds of ammo and the battle goes on for four rounds. 10 - 5 - 5 - 5 - 5. So after the first round the ships reload half of their total ammo.

2) Same conditions as above. 10 - 5 - 3 - 3 - 3. After the first round the ammo is halfway reloaded. After the second round it is, again, halfway reloaded, rounding up. We cap it at 3.

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08-18-2012, 11:48 AM
Post: #27
RE: Combat Primer
Heck, even one missile per turn would alter things a bit.
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08-18-2012, 04:49 PM
Post: #28
RE: Combat Primer
That was weird.

Had a nukes-destroyer wander into an enemy star system to see what was there. Set it to retreat. It reached the edge of the big circle with plenty of health left, and no enemy missiles or bullets or anything were fired from that point on.

... But its health just started dropping rapidly (faster than it had during combat) until it died. Only one thing in sight, and it was a starbase, which I'm pretty sure does not chase very fast.

Is there a key component of the "retreat after firing nukes" strategy that I'm missing, like "sometimes when you reach the edge of the circle with no pursuit, you randomly lose all your health?"
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08-18-2012, 05:03 PM
Post: #29
RE: Combat Primer
I'm not sure but I think the Starbase is closer to one side than the other. So it can potentially fire at your ship when you are at that side. If you fast forward the battle you won't see the weapons fire. Try watching it in normal speed.

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08-18-2012, 05:10 PM
Post: #30
RE: Combat Primer
(08-18-2012 05:03 PM)37ddV Wrote:  I'm not sure but I think the Starbase is closer to one side than the other. So it can potentially fire at your ship when you are at that side. If you fast forward the battle you won't see the weapons fire. Try watching it in normal speed.

At normal speed, my ship was somewhere off the bottom if the display -- it wasn't possible to scroll to it, or to keep it on screen by following it -- and there were no visible weapon things.
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