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Starbase Orion by the numbers
08-24-2012, 01:30 PM
Post: #11
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
Hmm. What about civil? I have no idea why ppl don't use civil. I use it on all my games and on all my planets except home planet. More population = more research/production/farming.

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08-24-2012, 04:10 PM
Post: #12
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
Well, VERY early, not enough room to grow for it to be very rewarding; once I've got a few planets, especially some arid/terran, then that becomes more attractive.

I should try to figure out the exact growth formulae.
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08-25-2012, 05:29 AM
Post: #13
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
Combat numbers, including a lot of stuff I don't know yet...

Okay, first: Speed. What is speed affected by? Combat pilots seems to affect speed. I have noticed that my ships seem faster in the later game; is combat speed affected by anything? (Interestingly, if I'm slow to get star drives, I still seem to notice some speed-up over time; at least, my scouts are better at keeping distance from dark matter.)

General basics:

Code:
Class:         CP    HP/SP  Systems  Shields  Cost
Frigate        1     50     1/2      10x      75
Destroyer      2     125    3/4      20x      250
Cruiser        2     200    5/3      30x      500
Battleship     2     300    6/6      40x      750
Titan          3     550    10/6     50x      1500
Mammoth        3     750    12/10    60x      2500
Starbase I     -1    250    5/4      70x      300
Starbase II    -2    500    8/6      80x      +310
Starbase III   -3    800    12/8     90x      +320

Shields are 10x, where X is shield class; a frigate with Energy Shields IV has 40 points, a Titan with Energy Shields II has 100. Systems are weapons/ship systems.

I haven't found out how to measure speed yet, or what the speed effects are. Given the rest of the mechanics, I believe that a ship with 5x Combat Engines will be exactly 2x the speed of the same class of ship with no Combat Engines.

I don't know the details of the effects of Point Defense; I assume it's less effective on photon torpedoes from the flavor text, but I really have no idea what the mechanics are. Is Point Defense a fixed chance per missile of destroying missiles? A rate at which missiles can be destroyed? I have no clue.

Shield recharge rate: What is it? Twice as high with an improved energy controllers, I guess.

What does shield modulation unit do *apart* from "work in nebulae"? It says it makes shields "more effective". How effective were they before? What changes?

Orbital bombardments deserve some discussion. You can equip them on Cruisers and above. Imagine that you want the largest possible number of orbital bombardments for a given build budget. How do you do that?

Cumulative cost of orbital bombardments:
Code:
Equipped        1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9
Cost of Last    50    100   200   400   800   1600  3200  6400  12800
Total Cost      50    150   350   750   1550  3150  6350  12750 25550

So, then, cost of an otherwise bare ship with orbital bombardments:
Code:
Class/Equipped  1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8
Cruiser         550   650   850   1250  2050  --    --    --
Battleship      800   900   1100  1500  2300  3900  7100  13500
Titan           1550  1600  1850  2250  3050  4650  7850  14250
Mammoth         2550  2600  2850  3250  4250  5650  8850  15250

So that gives us cost per bombardment:

Code:
Class/Equipped  1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8
Cruiser         550   325   283   313   410   608   979   1656
Battleship      800   450   367   375   460   650   1014  1688
Titan           1550  825   617   563   610   775   1121  1781
Mammoth         2550  1325  950   813   810   942   1264  1906

But wait! Let's say you want some basic protections. You want energy shields IV and both shield upgrades (250 cost, three slots), you want a full weapons loadout, and you want miscellaneous stuff in your open slots.

So that's 128 per slot for turrets or IPC or something, three fewer slots, and let's say an average of 75 per unused slot.

New costs:
Code:
Class/Equipped  1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8
Cruiser         1521   1546   --     --     --     --     --     --
Battleship      2124   2149   2274   2599   3324   --     --     --
Titan           3386   3411   3536   3861   4586   --     --     --
Mammoth         4942   4967   5092   5417   6142   7667   10792  17117
Per bombardment:                    
Cruiser         1521   773    --     --     --     --     --     --
Battleship      2124   1075   758    650    665    --     --     --
Titan           3386   1706   1179   965    917    --     --     --
Mammoth         4942   2484   1697   1354   1228   1278   1542   2140

So, long story short: If you want a ton of bombardments, and you want shields and weapons on them, battleship with 4-5 bombardments equipped is your best deal. If you just want a ton of bombardments regardless, go with cruisers with 3.
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08-25-2012, 01:43 PM
Post: #14
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
One point defense will negate one nuke launcher (kills 1 nuke per round). It takes 2 point defense to negate one proton torpedo launcher.

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08-25-2012, 02:19 PM
Post: #15
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
Ohhh. I get it. So when I was up against a ship with 3x point defense, with a couple of 5x fast missile nukes ships, it was blocking 3 per round out of the 10 or so incoming...
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08-25-2012, 06:41 PM
Post: #16
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
Side note:
It is not *quite* reliable that scouts with nukes can escape an amoeba. Specifically, if you rotate a new scout or two in every combat turn, eventually the game will spawn the reinforcements too close to the amoeba and they will die before they can run away.

So you need at least SOME kind of defense on scouts before that's a viable strategy. (It might be that destroyers would be enough tougher to last out a brief encounter.)
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08-27-2012, 11:55 AM
Post: #17
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
It occurs to me to point out: The analysis of cost of orbital bombardments ignores combat points. In bombardments/CP, your best bet is a battleship with 5 or a mammoth with 8, and the mammoth costs about 3x as much in production per bombardment.
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09-02-2012, 06:56 PM
Post: #18
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
Eyeballing Gaia populations:

Can't remember where you built what level of city planning?

Code:
Class  Base ACP1 ACP2 ACP3
Tiny      5    7    9   13
Small    10   12   14   18
Medium   15   17   19   23
Large    20   22   24   28
Huge     25   27   29   33

Which is to say:
Code:
Pop Type   ACP
5   Tiny   -
7   Tiny   I
9   Tiny   II
10  Small  -
12  Small  I
13  Tiny   III
14  Small  II
15  Medium -
17  Medium I
18  Small  III
19  Medium II
20  Large  -
22  Large  I
23  Medium III
24  Large  II
25  Huge   -
27  Huge   I
28  Large  III
29  Huge   II
33  Huge   III

The reason this works is that 2, 4, and 8 are not multiples of 5. You can't know both the size and city planning level of a Terran world from just the population capacity. You can almost tell with Arid; only clashes are that 11 can be tiny+ACP3 or medium+ACP1, and 17 can be medium+ACP3, or huge+ACP1.
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11-24-2012, 08:36 PM
Post: #19
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
Code:
Class:         CP    HP/SP  Systems  Shields  Cost
Frigate        1     50     1/2      10x      75
Destroyer      2     125    3/4      20x      250
Cruiser        2     200    5/3      30x      500
Battleship     2     300    6/6      40x      750
Titan          3     550    10/6     50x      1500
Mammoth        3     750    12/10    60x      2500
Starbase I     -1    250    5/4      70x      300
Starbase II    -2    500    8/6      80x      +310
Starbase III   -3    800    12/8     90x      +320

It occurs to me that this table is not as interesting as it would be with some more details. There's fancy interactions here, because weapons cost money, defenses cost money, and so on.

Consider if you will a frigate:
Energy shields IV, energy controller, shield modulation, reinforced bulkheads, 3x plasma turret III.

Damage output: 24 at close range, 81 at long range.
Health: 50 hull points, 137 structure, 40 shields.
Total cost: 784, or 627 with a space elevator.

Now consider a mammoth. 14x plasma turret III (I'll come back to this), reinforced bulkheads, heavy armor plating, aux thrusters, combat engines, 2x point defense system, 2x ECM jammer, additional fuel reserves.

Damage output: 112 at close range, 378 at long range.
Health: 1012 hull points, 1012 structure, 240 shields.
Total cost: 5117, or 4093 with a space elevator.

That's about 6.5x the cost of the frigate. If you built six frigates, in total they would have:
Damage output: 144 at close range, 486 at long range.
Health: 300 hull points, 822 structure, 240 shields
Total cost: 3762 with space elevator.

So the frigates have an edge in damage done, and the same amount of shields. I think their shields overall regenerate more (as each set of shields regenerates separately). On the other hand, the hulls are MUCH weaker, and they have no missile defenses at all.

The small ships have some advantages, but consider a close-but-winnable fight. The six frigates will almost certainly suffer at least one loss. The mammoth will be badly damaged, but ships can be repaired (and it doesn't cost money to repair them).

Furthermore, the mammoth has an additional advantage: It doesn't have to specialize. It could go for a mix of plasma turrets and ion pulse cannons, for instance, which would allow it to slaughter things that come close. A single 300 point hit will completely destroy a frigate (ignoring damage types), while it'll leave the mammoth with 90% or so of its hull intact and no structural damage.

The larger ships gain significant advantage from having more slots available so they can have more than one kind of defense, and possibly other extra functionality. This doesn't entirely erase the cost advantage of smaller ships, but it certainly shows up in some cases.

It may be more instructive to compare a destroyer to a battleship, as they're opposite ends of the range of "2 CP ships".

Plasma turret destroyer: 5x plasma turrets, damage 40-135. Shields, bulkheads/armor, and an ECM jammer. Total HP/SP 237, plus 80 shields. Total cost 1072 (with elevator).
Plasma turret battleship: 9x plasma turrets, damage 64-216. Shields, bulkheads/armor, ECM jammer, 2x point defense. HP/SP 450, plus 160 shields. Total cost 1859 (with elevator).

Two destroyers cost a little more than one battleship. They do more damage, and have slightly more total health, but have slightly weaker defenses. If you aren't expecting to need point defense, adding another layer of armor and bulkheads gets the battleship to 600 HP/SP.

The advantage of the large ships, summarized as simply as possible: It costs 75GC to add 87 health to a ship with three weapons, and it costs 75GC to add 262 health to a ship with 14 weapons. The same 150GC for Energy Shields IV will get you anywhere from 40 to 240 points of shielding. Or 250GC if you add modulation and improved energy controller.

If you skip defenses, the pricing comes out a little friendlier for the small ships, but they're even more vulnerable to being lost in battle. For comparison, a weapons-only plasma turret mammoth is 3434 GC for 750 HP/SP and the same damage output as before, while the frigate is 367. Instead of 6.5x as expensive, the mammoth is now nearly 9.4x as expensive. Of course, it still has way more health than 9 unarmored frigates, but 27 plasma turrets do nearly twice as much damage as 14...

Keep in mind that smaller ships are faster. Frigates or even destroyers armed with nukes have a very good chance of escaping a battle to run away and launch more missiles another time.
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11-10-2013, 08:27 AM
Post: #20
RE: Starbase Orion by the numbers
I wish to point out:

Many of the numbers in this thread are wrong now. Specifically, costs of many ship systems now change with ship size, CP costs are slightly more diverse, and planets have many structure slots available. A lot of things are pretty similar, but colony infrastructure is much more important, and you're likely to want III even on small or even medium worlds.
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