Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
12-04-2012, 06:53 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2012 06:59 PM by MarcusVictor.)
Post: #1
Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
Some players despise the Laser Blitz
It simply drives them into fits.
"It's like swill beer, that they call Schlitz,
Worse than a bad case of the s̶h̶ runs!"

"Research! Research!" the Blitzers reply,
"Is bound to fail- I'll tell you why!
Protons, Plasmas, Ions you try.
Too late! Too late! My Lasers- you die!"

Researchers and Blitzers, please don't hate.
We've got a failure to communicate.
Hey, both of you play really great.
It's the GALAXY SIZE that decides your fate!

If size is big, you're far from me.
Time to research, my Plasmas you'll see.
But if it's small, I will Blitz thee.
Follow the Word of 37ddV.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-05-2012, 12:31 AM
Post: #2
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
We'll see whether your third verse holds true or not. Wink
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 11:22 PM
Post: #3
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
I'd like to share my experiences (just 3 games in 1.1.7) on the Massive galaxy, as a long time Medium galaxy/Blitz type player:

1) First game, versus another talented Blitzer. We explore and colonise rapidly. We both scramble Laser3 fleets as soon as possible - I manage to win due to a combination of military Leaders and better maneuver. No advanced weapons appear.

2) Second game, versus a Researcher/turtle. I follow the same strategy - attacking with a Laser3 fleet. I find opponent's planets with Starbase1 and not much of a fleet. I win, no advanced weapons appear.

3) Third game, versus a talented Researcher/turtle. I follow the same strategy, but am stopped cold in my tracks by Starbase3 around each of my opponent's planets. I am forced to adapt to a slow research-oriented approach myself. This demonstrates pretty conclusively that a Blitz won't work against good defense on a Massive galaxy. Game ongoing.

Let me give my naive analysis of that game 3. Starbase3 is not that far nor very expensive on the tech tree. Likewise, a Starbase3 is extremely efficient, in terms of battle strength/production cost. It takes weapons that are nearly useless on a ship (such as Ion1 and Proton1) due to their high cost, and makes them perfectly useful. A Starbase3 (cost=930) with just Proton1, Ammo, and FML can dish out 4032 points of damage. With Proton3, 9072. It would require fleet of 4+ big ships with 3ECM to overcome that - production cost probably 8000 or more, and you'd suffer significant losses, making a sustained attack wave hard to carry on. Starbase3 seems to enjoy about a 10-1 advantage in terms of battle efficiency versus a typical fleet. Of course, this is tempered by the fact that a Starbase defense must be built on every planet within range, whereas a ship based defense needs only be built once (provided you've got fast Stardrive to get to the hot spots in time). If you need to build that Starbase on 5 front-line planets, then your production advantage is down to 2-1. Starbase3 seems to encourage a strategy on a Massive galaxy, where you build massive fortresses, and sit safely behind them, researching and stockpiling production, for a long long time.

Rather than a Laser3 Blitzkrieg, it results in a Starbase3 Sitzkrieg.

Let me invite the more experienced long game players to weigh in on these two questions:

1) Is the Starbase3 Sitzkreig the dominant strategy for Massive galaxies? That is, the one you think is most likely to win?

2) Is this strategy the most fun to play?

My answers would be (1) Yes. (2) No.

In particular, I like the extended exploring/colonisation phase of the long game. I like the feeling of stretched supply lines - combat likely at the front, but can you get your fleet from your homeworld to the battle in time? I like the variety of weapons available past Laser3, and the big fleets. But I don't like the Sitzkreig. I'd rather see a long game where there are some early battles with Generation 1 fleets (Lasers/Nukes/Gauss), followed by end game battles with Proton/Ion/Plasma. I think that would be more fun. There's a reason why there are so many WWII based games and so few WWI Western front trench warfare games.

Differing opinions welcome.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2013, 01:24 AM
Post: #4
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
I am guilty of being player 3 and forcing MarcusVictor to expand his horizons beyond Laser3. I played him two games, one on a normal PVP random match setting, and one with a massive spiral galaxy. And his Dr. Seussesque verse 4 holds true. On a medium galaxy, against a talented laser blitzer, I don't believe a research-based strategy can win. You might be able to go with a different blitz (nuke or more likely gauss), but don't plan on exploring much of the research tree. In fact, the research tree is pretty much limited to ACP1, EF1/2, HA1,Research 1/2, Improved Fuel, Stardrive, Marines2, and Laser2-3.

I knew that MarcusVictor would come straight out of the gates with a blitz on massive, so I built up defenses accordingly, which in this case was Starbase2 and Proton1 literally the turn before his fleets were ready to attack.

But against another "builder" or "researcher" this isn't always the case. I often find other builders that pass up Starbase 2 in favor of another tech (like orbital labs, fuel). If you are playing massive galaxy builder-versus-builder, the other person is usually content to focus on R&D and fleet-based defense, because if you focus on development of small fleet attacks and the other person focuses on R&D, you'll end up with a nice mid-research fleet (combat engines, gauss2-3, laser 2-3, HA1-2 typically) and the other person will have mammoths with IPC/Proton/Plasma. Any foray into attacking is usually met by a starbase with limited fleet that can defend itself, resulting in the other person being a step ahead in development.

In a way, there are two arms races going on. For the blitzers, it is a race to see who can micromanage the quickest and deadliest fleet and put the other player on the defensive. For the builders, the race is to see who can get the most planets/population/research so that when fleets are deployed, you have the biggest, deadliest fleet. But with warp gates and major choices between different weapons, the tactics used to crack the other person's defenses are different than with just laser3.

By late game, starbases are almost irrelevant for defense. They are an afterthought to a fleet of 20+ mammoth. I use them generally just to force the opponent to waste valuable systems slots on ECM, and to make their ships cost more. They are still a good deterrent against a blitz of 1-2 mammoth to a planet. But they are more useful for the healing they provide, their ability to scrap and rebuild ships quickly, and for their command points.

So to answer MarcusVictor's questions:

1) Is the Starbase3 Sitzkreig the dominant strategy for Massive galaxies? That is, the one you think is most likely to win?

Against a blitzer, yes. Against a good R&Der, no. Wasting energy early on starbase3, FML, Ammo, and FML when the other person has EF2, Research3, Cloning, ACP3 is a recipe for loss. R&D players respond to the threat at hand. If there is no threat, continue building. If there is a threat, a good Starbase is a quick solution.

2) Is this strategy the most fun to play?

There can be great satisfaction in out-developing and outproducing your opponent. That is basically what blitzers are doing, if you think about it. And the key is balancing that perfect line between research and the immediate threat at hand. Gaia planets with no defense don't last very long against a big fleet. It is that uncertainty of what decisions are best that make the game interesting. But most fun? That is totally dependent on the player and their play style. Even if someone outproduces you late game, you still have a chance to out-fight them and win. I went up against a fleet of 50 mammoth against Vander, and lost all of them. He had 25 survive. Command points become a great equalizer.

As an aside, I find it somewhat humorous that blitzers seem to prefer the very aggressive Isather icon/ships. I suspect you won't find very many Vass blitzers. I am curious if you can get a hint of what type of opponent you will be facing by the race they choose. I suspect there is a correlation.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2013, 02:11 AM
Post: #5
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
(01-11-2013 01:24 AM)Diebo Wrote:  I am guilty of being player 3 and forcing MarcusVictor to expand his horizons beyond Laser3. I played him two games, one on a normal PVP random match setting, and one with a massive spiral galaxy. And his Dr. Seussesque verse 4 holds true. On a medium galaxy, against a talented laser blitzer, I don't believe a research-based strategy can win. You might be able to go with a different blitz (nuke or more likely gauss), but don't plan on exploring much of the research tree. In fact, the research tree is pretty much limited to ACP1, EF1/2, HA1,Research 1/2, Improved Fuel, Stardrive, Marines2, and Laser2-3.

Hooray for Dr. Seuss. For me at least, the mystery is solved.

By the way, when Blitzing on a Medium, there's even less room than you say for the tech tree. It's simply: Research1 & 2, Laser 2 & 3, Fuel 2, Stardrive 2, attack. Advanced Colony Planning you pass by; Factories you can get later; you don't even need Armor1 to attack.

Quote:I knew that MarcusVictor would come straight out of the gates with a blitz on massive, so I built up defenses accordingly, which in this case was Starbase2 and Proton1 literally the turn before his fleets were ready to attack.

But against another "builder" or "researcher" this isn't always the case. I often find other builders that pass up Starbase 2 in favor of another tech (like orbital labs, fuel). If you are playing massive galaxy builder-versus-builder, the other person is usually content to focus on R&D and fleet-based defense, because if you focus on development of small fleet attacks and the other person focuses on R&D, you'll end up with a nice mid-research fleet (combat engines, gauss2-3, laser 2-3, HA1-2 typically) and the other person will have mammoths with IPC/Proton/Plasma. Any foray into attacking is usually met by a starbase with limited fleet that can defend itself, resulting in the other person being a step ahead in development.

In a way, there are two arms races going on. For the blitzers, it is a race to see who can micromanage the quickest and deadliest fleet and put the other player on the defensive. For the builders, the race is to see who can get the most planets/population/research so that when fleets are deployed, you have the biggest, deadliest fleet. But with warp gates and major choices between different weapons, the tactics used to crack the other person's defenses are different than with just laser3.

By late game, starbases are almost irrelevant for defense. They are an afterthought to a fleet of 20+ mammoth. I use them generally just to force the opponent to waste valuable systems slots on ECM, and to make their ships cost more. They are still a good deterrent against a blitz of 1-2 mammoth to a planet. But they are more useful for the healing they provide, their ability to scrap and rebuild ships quickly, and for their command points.

So to answer MarcusVictor's questions:

1) Is the Starbase3 Sitzkreig the dominant strategy for Massive galaxies? That is, the one you think is most likely to win?

Against a blitzer, yes. Against a good R&Der, no. Wasting energy early on starbase3, FML, Ammo, and FML when the other person has EF2, Research3, Cloning, ACP3 is a recipe for loss. R&D players respond to the threat at hand. If there is no threat, continue building. If there is a threat, a good Starbase is a quick solution.

2) Is this strategy the most fun to play?

There can be great satisfaction in out-developing and outproducing your opponent. That is basically what blitzers are doing, if you think about it. And the key is balancing that perfect line between research and the immediate threat at hand. Gaia planets with no defense don't last very long against a big fleet. It is that uncertainty of what decisions are best that make the game interesting. But most fun? That is totally dependent on the player and their play style. Even if someone outproduces you late game, you still have a chance to out-fight them and win. I went up against a fleet of 50 mammoth against Vander, and lost all of them. He had 25 survive. Command points become a great equalizer.

As an aside, I find it somewhat humorous that blitzers seem to prefer the very aggressive Isather icon/ships. I suspect you won't find very many Vass blitzers. I am curious if you can get a hint of what type of opponent you will be facing by the race they choose. I suspect there is a correlation.

It's true. The Isather ships just look mean.

I also get a lot of satisfaction of out-developing and out-producing an opponent- it is the same way you win in a Blitz vs Blitz match. I wonder if there is a way to get the best of both worlds- the attack/counterattack in a Blitz game, but with the extensive exploring, development, and advanced weapons of the long game, but without the "Sitzkrieg". How about a combination of these two changes:

1) Raise research costs for Fuel Cells2, 3, 4 and Stardrive 2, 3, 4 dramatically

2) Raise research costs for Starbase2 & Starbase3 dramatically

(1) ensures that on a Massive galaxy, you'll have more time for development and research of advanced weapons- the long distances will make it harder for an opponent to roll over your planets.

(2) ensures that when contact is made, that you'll have to be prepared to defend your border colonies with some kind of battle fleet - no more hiding behind Starbases exclusively.

Opinions?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2013, 02:57 AM
Post: #6
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
(01-11-2013 02:11 AM)MarcusVictor Wrote:  I also get a lot of satisfaction of out-developing and out-producing an opponent- it is the same way you win in a Blitz vs Blitz match. I wonder if there is a way to get the best of both worlds- the attack/counterattack in a Blitz game, but with the extensive exploring, development, and advanced weapons of the long game, but without the "Sitzkrieg". How about a combination of these two changes:

1) Raise research costs for Fuel Cells2, 3, 4 and Stardrive 2, 3, 4 dramatically

2) Raise research costs for Starbase2 & Starbase3 dramatically

(1) ensures that on a Massive galaxy, you'll have more time for development and research of advanced weapons- the long distances will make it harder for an opponent to roll over your planets.

(2) ensures that when contact is made, that you'll have to be prepared to defend your border colonies with some kind of battle fleet - no more hiding behind Starbases exclusively.

Opinions?

Fuel cells and stardrive costs aren't all that relevant to the success of a blitz. Blitzers can just leapfrog with colony ships to where they want to go (removing fuel cell worries). And you really only need the first stardrive to pull off a blitz (if that). It slows it down, but not significantly enough. I am thinking about the game we are playing - stardrive maybe added 10-15 turns to your initial attack.

Increasing starbase cost would help a blitzer significantly, but I don't think it would encourage R&D folks to go blitzing themselves (so they would still happily build away unmolested, if given the chance). In our current game, you would have swamped me (even 10-15 turns later) if I only had starbase 1.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2013, 03:30 AM
Post: #7
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
I think MV has highlighted one major issue that steers things towards sitz/blitzkrieg: the construction costs of low levels of advanced weapons are so high as to make them useless. L2 and G1 are perfectly useful on starships, N2/N3 are also useful and cheap to research; Plasma1 and Torp1, not so much! So there is a huge gap until all that research becomes useful.

I am not sure early attack with a short tree is such a problem, as long as it is possible to both prepare for it and do some development. A lot of these issues could be there simply because the game is so early in development, and the community is still small and fragmented, so a lot of opponents play less than best possible strategies.

I'll hold my judgement on how hard it is to defend against a blitz until we play a couple games Smile but if your opponent is still at SD1 and L1 at 406.x, as I too often see in random matches, there is absolutely no reason he should be able to put up any serious resistance.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2013, 04:06 AM
Post: #8
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
I'll add for the sitzkrieg strategy that I almost NEVER research starbase 2 or 3 my first time through the astro tree, there's just too many other things I want.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2013, 08:11 AM
Post: #9
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
(01-11-2013 04:06 AM)VanderLegion Wrote:  I'll add for the sitzkrieg strategy that I almost NEVER research starbase 2 or 3 my first time through the astro tree, there's just too many other things I want.

So if you don't build Starbase2 and Starbase3, and you don't build any decent size fleet for defense, what do you do when Laser Cruisers (piloted by poo-flinging monkeys) and Troop ships start approaching your periphery worlds around turn 409 or so? Is there a third defense?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2013, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2013 10:47 AM by VanderLegion.)
Post: #10
RE: Starbase Orion, according to Dr. Seuss
(01-11-2013 08:11 AM)MarcusVictor Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 04:06 AM)VanderLegion Wrote:  I'll add for the sitzkrieg strategy that I almost NEVER research starbase 2 or 3 my first time through the astro tree, there's just too many other things I want.

So if you don't build Starbase2 and Starbase3, and you don't build any decent size fleet for defense, what do you do when Laser Cruisers (piloted by poo-flinging monkeys) and Troop ships start approaching your periphery worlds around turn 409 or so? Is there a third defense?

I do build ships for defense.
Also, I play almost exclusively anymore against a small number of players, I haven't done random matchmaking in a long time. Pretty much all of the people I play against are like Diebo and myself - in it for the long haul. None of my common foes use laser blitzes, so it's not an issue. The strategy we tend to use is designed for play against others playing for the long game as well. You adapt it if you're gonna be playing against a blitzer (or perhaps against someone you're unsure about). Against a blitzer, I MIGHT go for the bigger starbases, or I might just stick to building up my own fleet. Last time I played against a blitzer, I just built up my own laser fleet, waited for him to attack me, killed his fleet, then just kept growing my own fleet for defense while I continued expanding and researching

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | Starbase Orion | Return to Top | Return to Content | Lite (Archive) Mode | RSS Syndication