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v1.1.8 General Feedback
01-18-2013, 06:53 AM
Post: #31
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
(01-18-2013 03:26 AM)macaronnie Wrote:  
(01-16-2013 03:17 PM)bmike Wrote:  I've played a few games and Diebo has cleaned my clock handily each time unless I get a big handicap. I wanted to propose naming a ship class after him -

Frigate with 3x Proton 3 and FML, Stockpile, RB2, HA2. They are deadly, deadly, deadly for the cost.

I played around with the beta a little, and was thinking of the same thing. Was it really necessary to adjust weapons costs? The original discussion that lead to this was all about system costs, and it makes perfect sense to have, say, armor on a battleship cost more than on a frigate; but it's less obvious why a weapon that does the same damage costs less.

Also it seems that even more of the game revolves around CP limits now Sad
BTW: if I build a Mammoth in the "test game", the CP cost pop-up window says "-4: 1 Mammoth (3 pts each)".
I am guessing it is easier to code an across-the-board reduction in price for Rocco than piecemeal. One solution to this I like is an across-the-board damage increase/decrease based on ship size (don't know how hard that would be to code). A frigate has a small version of X weapon, and does less (same percentage less as weapons are discounted). Mammoth weapons are scaled up, cost more, do more damage. Starbases could be considered small, medium, and large based on level.

I played around a bit with simple proton-vs-proton ships to test if frigates are all-powerful or not. Late game, you'd still want a mammoth once you hit CP caps. For 4 CP, you can take out 10 CP of frigates, easily, at the same cost. A mammoth can also be retooled much more easily than frigates. A wounded mammoth heals, dead frigates don't. If weapons get scaled to ship size, mammoth would become even more powerful and I think you could make an argument to increase CP cost of mammoths (and other ships).

However, even late-game frigates are useful. They can be part of your build-and-scrap program (10 worlds make one frigates, turn them into one mammoth). And they actually help in combat. And they help in command of the battlefield.

I haven't tested 3 CP Titan vs 4 CP Mammoth yet. Would be interesting to see if 4 titan beat 3 mammoth. Costs late game usually aren't the main factor.

For early to mid-game, and against the computer, frigates are pretty powerful. I don't see any reason to build more than a frigate against the AI.

As predicted, Warlord and Pacifistic are too good to pass up (which will change some strategies out there). Morph is pretty powerful too.
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01-18-2013, 08:15 AM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2013 08:21 AM by seebs.)
Post: #32
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
Couple notes:

In general, this feels really nice; there's a hard-to-articulate improvement in the feel of fleet costs. Mammoths are just a bit more expensive, Titans are actually sort of attractive. I no longer hate cruisers for not having enough system slots. Starbase pricing seems reasonable; it's a bit high, but they really are pretty awesome.

I would sorta like massive galaxies to be more spread out -- late game, with fuel cells IV, basically everything is in range from a reasonably central star. Early game, with 8 players, your scouts can reach stars an adjacent player's scouts can reach without any upgrades or colonization. Seems a bit too close.

Idle thought: Ship system which disrupts enemy {weapons, ship systems, engines, or something}. So if someone's targeting strongest ships, a single frigate with a System Disruptor could hurt their fleet significantly, without doing a point of damage. Or you could have a small ship with an Engine Disruptor that works to prevent other ships from fleeing or closing, or something.

I continue to think that ships would benefit hugely from having the option of not moving at full speed; if they had acceleration speed and velocity caps, they would have the option of "keeping long range" by flying away from something but not very fast, for instance, and would be less likely to close to medium before they can turn around again.
The app list in TestFlight is showing "Version 1.1.8.b9 (1.1.8)" for FC, and "Version 1.1.8.b9 (1.1.1)" for BETA.
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01-18-2013, 08:36 AM
Post: #33
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
(01-18-2013 03:26 AM)macaronnie Wrote:  
(01-16-2013 03:17 PM)bmike Wrote:  I've played a few games and Diebo has cleaned my clock handily each time unless I get a big handicap. I wanted to propose naming a ship class after him -

Frigate with 3x Proton 3 and FML, Stockpile, RB2, HA2. They are deadly, deadly, deadly for the cost.


I played around with the beta a little, and was thinking of the same thing. Was it really necessary to adjust weapons costs? The original discussion that lead to this was all about system costs, and it makes perfect sense to have, say, armor on a battleship cost more than on a frigate; but it's less obvious why a weapon that does the same damage costs less.

Also it seems that even more of the game revolves around CP limits now Sad
BTW: if I build a Mammoth in the "test game", the CP cost pop-up window says "-4: 1 Mammoth (3 pts each)".

+1

I am fairly skeptical to the "variable weapon cost based on hull size" idea, for three reasons. First, I find it counter-intuitive; I think of a weapon as a massed produced standardized item that is simply fitted to the hull. Second, I don't think it achieves its stated objective of encouraging diversity of ship size. Thirdly, it adds complexity to a game that's already a bit complex.

Making most defensive systems scale with ship size makes a bit more sense - for, say, Armor and Bulkheads, but not for PDS or Jammer.

(01-18-2013 06:53 AM)Diebo Wrote:  I am guessing it is easier to code an across-the-board reduction in price for Rocco than piecemeal. One solution to this I like is an across-the-board damage increase/decrease based on ship size (don't know how hard that would be to code). A frigate has a small version of X weapon, and does less (same percentage less as weapons are discounted). Mammoth weapons are scaled up, cost more, do more damage. Starbases could be considered small, medium, and large based on level.

I played around a bit with simple proton-vs-proton ships to test if frigates are all-powerful or not. Late game, you'd still want a mammoth once you hit CP caps. For 4 CP, you can take out 10 CP of frigates, easily, at the same cost. A mammoth can also be retooled much more easily than frigates. A wounded mammoth heals, dead frigates don't. If weapons get scaled to ship size, mammoth would become even more powerful and I think you could make an argument to increase CP cost of mammoths (and other ships).

However, even late-game frigates are useful. They can be part of your build-and-scrap program (10 worlds make one frigates, turn them into one mammoth). And they actually help in combat. And they help in command of the battlefield.

I haven't tested 3 CP Titan vs 4 CP Mammoth yet. Would be interesting to see if 4 titan beat 3 mammoth. Costs late game usually aren't the main factor.

For early to mid-game, and against the computer, frigates are pretty powerful. I don't see any reason to build more than a frigate against the AI.

As predicted, Warlord and Pacifistic are too good to pass up (which will change some strategies out there). Morph is pretty powerful too.

Diebo, rather than a weapon having variable damage based upon the hull size it is mounted on, which I think would be somewhat complex, perhaps you'd consider multi-slot variants of standard weapons. EG, you could have a 4-slot Ion weapon that does the damage of 5 regular Ions, an 8-slot Ion weapon that does the damage of 12 Ions, etc.
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01-18-2013, 09:03 AM
Post: #34
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
(01-18-2013 08:15 AM)seebs Wrote:  The app list in TestFlight is showing "Version 1.1.8.b9 (1.1.8)" for FC, and "Version 1.1.8.b9 (1.1.1)" for BETA.

its a long story, but suffice it to say the number in parenthesis needs to be that way to work around a GC sandbox bug.
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01-18-2013, 09:04 AM
Post: #35
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
I don't have an issue with removing the variable cost for weapons, but leaving it for ship systems (the code is already set up to do that).
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01-18-2013, 09:48 AM
Post: #36
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
(01-17-2013 02:41 PM)seebs Wrote:  And one more:

If you have never seen the system Magistrate X is in, it shows up with a white name even though you've never seen the planets. This is a dead giveaway. And if you take one planet in the system, but not the one she's on, part of the name is shown and the other part is invisible.

Note also that if you just make it always show the name in transparent, and you HAVE been to the system, having its name disappear even though you know the planet types is also a giveaway...

Basically, systems with X need to behave exactly like a system with no enemy colony at all. So if you haven't explored it, you don't see the name. If you've explored it, it shows up in white. If you've colonized a planet, it shows the entire name in your color.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
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01-18-2013, 10:29 AM
Post: #37
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
(01-18-2013 09:04 AM)rocco Wrote:  I don't have an issue with removing the variable cost for weapons, but leaving it for ship systems (the code is already set up to do that).

I kinda like the new system. I don't know that there has been enough playtesting to see long-term consequences. I like the price changes so far. Cheap powerful frigates allows for quick rebuilding and defense, CP limits abuse of frigate swarms, and CP and tech provide good incentives to build bigger ships.
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01-18-2013, 11:33 AM
Post: #38
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
(01-18-2013 09:48 AM)VanderLegion Wrote:  Basically, systems with X need to behave exactly like a system with no enemy colony at all. So if you haven't explored it, you don't see the name. If you've explored it, it shows up in white. If you've colonized a planet, it shows the entire name in your color.

Yup, added to whipping post.
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01-18-2013, 03:46 PM
Post: #39
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
Oh, while I'm thinking of it:

There are sometimes "between-combat colonization opportunity" messages when no such opportunity exists. Can be generated with a couple of scouts evading some dark matter while slowly lasering them down, plus a colony ship.
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01-18-2013, 06:43 PM
Post: #40
RE: v1.1.8 General Feedback
(01-18-2013 10:29 AM)Diebo Wrote:  
(01-18-2013 09:04 AM)rocco Wrote:  I don't have an issue with removing the variable cost for weapons, but leaving it for ship systems (the code is already set up to do that).

I kinda like the new system. I don't know that there has been enough playtesting to see long-term consequences. I like the price changes so far. Cheap powerful frigates allows for quick rebuilding and defense, CP limits abuse of frigate swarms, and CP and tech provide good incentives to build bigger ships.

I was going to ask if there was any feedback from the long game players on BETA with Massive galaxy as to whether the change encourages mixed fleets- the idea that an effective fleet should consist of a mixture of big Mammoths and Titans, with smaller Frigate/Destroyer escorts, rather than ships of all one size. Anyone?

I could see how cheaper frigates, more expensive Mammoths helps an underdog bounce back. It sorta results in decreasing returns to scale of industrial production- ie, twice the production results in less than twice as powerful a fleet.
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