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New leader option, and thoughts on balance between research and production races
08-05-2013, 04:10 AM
Post: #1
New leader option, and thoughts on balance between research and production races
While more testing is probably needed to see if research builds are OP vs production / spy builds, I suspect we will find that a good research build has become too powerful on a large map. One tweak that could be made now without risking problems with balance is introducing a new leader option: time length (like the tourney option) but without the ability to ban. The reason is that there are two leaders for a research build which can be very problematic if the production/spy build opponent gets them (X and Cerebrum), whereas there is no equivalent for a production race (you could argue that Xalon is more valuable to a research race but not to the same degree that X and Cerebrum are valuable to a production / spy build).

Tourney setting has become the norm, and in MP games this means you will rarely play with X or Cerebrum. I think this "time length" option could become the new norm, making research builds struggle a bit more with money since they usually aren't making as much cash as production/spy. Those who don't want to play games without the ability to ban leaders can always still select tourney or ban.

Leaders "on" avoids the ban but seems to be rarely used due to not having time lengths.

What do others think?
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08-07-2013, 03:51 AM
Post: #2
RE: New leader option, and thoughts on balance between research and production races
(08-05-2013 04:10 AM)Skins0815 Wrote:  While more testing is probably needed to see if research builds are OP vs production / spy builds, I suspect we will find that a good research build has become too powerful on a large map. One tweak that could be made now without risking problems with balance is introducing a new leader option: time length (like the tourney option) but without the ability to ban. The reason is that there are two leaders for a research build which can be very problematic if the production/spy build opponent gets them (X and Cerebrum), whereas there is no equivalent for a production race (you could argue that Xalon is more valuable to a research race but not to the same degree that X and Cerebrum are valuable to a production / spy build).

Tourney setting has become the norm, and in MP games this means you will rarely play with X or Cerebrum. I think this "time length" option could become the new norm, making research builds struggle a bit more with money since they usually aren't making as much cash as production/spy. Those who don't want to play games without the ability to ban leaders can always still select tourney or ban.

Leaders "on" avoids the ban but seems to be rarely used due to not having time lengths.

What do others think?

I am certainly not opposed to a tourney timer for leaders without banning any - but it would be easy enough to just ask everyone to not ban any leaders in the settings. I am not sure a whole button (which take away from the simplicity of the setup) would be warranted.

RE: Leaders. I think X is very important to a research race. X has the greatest ability to determine ship build, which means you can restructure your ships to counter the opponents. And X helps protect against spying. I think X is great for any build. Spying is less of an issue for a research build, because they can research colony security relatively easily. Nowadays, a good production/spy build will have to make some hard choices if they want to get cloaking.

Same thing with Cerebrum. The benefits to research really help out a research race, too.

Production races should theoretically be able to get more money to buy leaders, but research races can afford to pick up efficient tax collector, trade ports, and and industry/farming boosting techs that bring in money. A hydro II early makes a huge difference on transport costs, for example.

I guess my thought is, try it out first a couple of games (just ask everyone to not ban leaders, but use tourney setting) and see if that changes the game for you.

More importantly - if research races are OP, what makes them OP should be tweaked. It isn't primarily leaders. I think the jury is out right now on what exactly the best build is. I haven't found one yet! I've had successes and failures with industry, hybrid, and science. Before, I just used (very successfully) an industry build.
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08-13-2013, 01:08 AM
Post: #3
RE: New leader option, and thoughts on balance between research and production races
To what extent is the power of a research build a consequence of the fast pace of acquiring research late game, such that a big edge in research capacity nets you huge potential gains as you seem to get tech at a faster and faster rate - which cascades into production bonuses and reduced weapon costs?

If the pace of researching was stretched out much, much further (say it took 3-4 times longer), there would be more opportunity for a production build to leverage its advantages into the mid-stage of the game, even if at a tech disadvantage.

Frankly - it may resolve another issue I'm seeing more and more, which is the rediculous rate of tech advances in the mid/late game. I have a modest handful of worlds researching and tech, and most tech advances come every 4 or 5 turns it seems.
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08-13-2013, 01:22 AM
Post: #4
RE: New leader option, and thoughts on balance between research and production races
(08-13-2013 01:08 AM)Mezmorki Wrote:  To what extent is the power of a research build a consequence of the fast pace of acquiring research late game, such that a big edge in research capacity nets you huge potential gains as you seem to get tech at a faster and faster rate - which cascades into production bonuses and reduced weapon costs?

If the pace of researching was stretched out much, much further (say it took 3-4 times longer), there would be more opportunity for a production build to leverage its advantages into the mid-stage of the game, even if at a tech disadvantage.

Frankly - it may resolve another issue I'm seeing more and more, which is the rediculous rate of tech advances in the mid/late game. I have a modest handful of worlds researching and tech, and most tech advances come every 4 or 5 turns it seems.

I agree. I came up with some ideas in this thread:

http://www.chimerasw.com/starbaseorion/f...p?tid=1953
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