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Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
09-12-2013, 02:27 PM
Post: #1
Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
One element of the game that may still need tweaking to achieve balance is population growth. The vast majority of successful builds that I have seen include old fashioned, even after the change that ties civic funding to population growth. In the latest beta I tested two similar builds, one with old fashioned and one with fertile biology. Those extra 6 racial points with the old fashioned build got me better production and more money. Even in the early mid game, and certainly in the late game, the old fashioned build dominated. This is because cloning facilities become available with Xin Rek and/or research generally around turns 405-406, and at 100k growth/turn plus 20-30k pop growth/turn you can fill up most of your planets by turn 410 or 411. It's even easier to do this once colony ships 2 (which now include cloning facilities) become available.

I suspect fertile biology races make more sense with a blitz strategy on small maps but haven't tested this. Still, it would be great if there was enough balance such that old fashioned races didn't dominate fertile biology and baby boomer races on large, huge, and massive maps.

Of course, this problem was worse when you could use the "build planetary expansion 2 or 3, scrap the building, move the extra colonists somewhere else" exploit. But even without this exploit, it seems too easy to quickly fill up planets with cloning facilities.

I'm very curious if others agree with me here. A few possible ways to tweak this if others agree it needs tweaking:

--make the population traits -2/0/+2/+3 or -2/0/+2/+4 instead of -3/0/+3/+6
--somehow reduce the effectiveness of cloning facilities (+75 instead of +100?) and/or add a bonus to population growth for cloning facilities (+20%?)
--increase the cost of building cloning facilities
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09-12-2013, 02:50 PM
Post: #2
RE: Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
Moving to a percentage-only bonus for cloning facilities seems to make a lot of sense.
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09-12-2013, 02:57 PM
Post: #3
RE: Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
(09-12-2013 02:50 PM)rocco Wrote:  Moving to a percentage-only bonus for cloning facilities seems to make a lot of sense.

I would not move to percentage only, as this would make fertile biology or baby boomer races over powerful and old fashioned impossible to play. Perhaps a combination of some modest fixed gain and a percentage gain (+75 or +50 fixed and +20%?) I just don't see how in the world an old fashioned race could work without the ability to use cloning or civic funding.
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09-12-2013, 03:16 PM
Post: #4
RE: Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
I'd rather see other builds buffed as opposed to old-fashioned being nerfed. The game already plays FAR slower than it did before the last update due to the research changes, and I play on quick. I can't imagine it on standard. Nerfing old-fashioned will make it go even slower...

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
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09-12-2013, 03:16 PM
Post: #5
RE: Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
(09-12-2013 02:57 PM)Skins0815 Wrote:  I would not move to percentage only, as this would make fertile biology or baby boomer races over powerful and old fashioned impossible to play.

I haven't thought about it deeply yet, but I don't think it would be as drastic as that. Especially if it was something like +20% (up to 100k). Old fashioned should be painful to take.
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09-12-2013, 11:44 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2013 11:45 PM by Diebo.)
Post: #6
RE: Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
(09-12-2013 03:16 PM)rocco Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 02:57 PM)Skins0815 Wrote:  I would not move to percentage only, as this would make fertile biology or baby boomer races over powerful and old fashioned impossible to play.

I haven't thought about it deeply yet, but I don't think it would be as drastic as that. Especially if it was something like +20% (up to 100k). Old fashioned should be painful to take.

I'd have to agree with VanderLegion on this one. The pace is slow; this wouldn't help to nerf old-fashioned.

Logically, old-fashioned races should be able to clone just as successfully as fertile ones. I am guessing that a fertile race has more children naturally than old-fashioned. The whole point of cloning is to get around that natural restriction.

Old-fashioned already gives quite a penalty. Have you ever tried civic funding with old-fashioned? It isn't worth it. Civic funding is where the real cost of old-fashioned comes up (plus overall slower growth rate). With boomer, you can still pull 0.5M/turn on an outfitted planet. I tried it in our unlimited game during beta.

My recommendation would be to boost growth rates up, or increase the curve on civic funding, rather than to nerf cloning.

I've certainly played against blitzers (esp. on teams) where taking baby boomer or fast growth is part of a successful strategy. Old-fashioned is a long-term strategy. I don't think it is broken.

I do think that if you put 6 points into baby boomers, you should get something significant out of it. Right now, I think the data supports that this isn't enough.

I'd boost growth rates up a bit (and maybe down for old-fashioned?); this would also affect civic funding.

And if I played a boomer strategy, I'd probably ban Xin.

Getting cloning requires tough choices in the tree. Especially with the revamped brilliant.
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09-14-2013, 04:03 AM
Post: #7
RE: Balance for population growth and cloning facilities
Old-fashioned is ALREADY fairly painful, because it multiplies civic funding. Compare the results of civic funding between the various population settings, it's insane. It's ultimately about a factor of four multiplier, meaning a rich, built-up, world with a few people doing civic funding can be, say, 300k/turn or 1.2M/turn. Cloning, as it exists now, changes that to 0.4/1.3, and that's... basically nothing. Cloning centers are nice, but they don't particularly eliminate the huge cost of old-fashioned, even though they do mitigate it a little.
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