Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
08-28-2014, 05:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-29-2014 04:38 AM by WyLee.)
Post: #1
Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
I’ve had SO for a couple days now and find it difficult to slog thru.

I’ve read ALL the forum aids, Anthee’s Strategy Guid for Starbase Orion, Seebs’ Starbase Orion by the Numbers, Bailknight’s Necommer Tutorial, Pro Tips, VanderLegion’s Combat Primer, etc. I’ve even taken notes.

I request consideration of the following features to aid newbie and casual player.

1. Context Sensitive Help/Tip Aid at each decision point in SO. The Ipad does not lend itself to shuffling an app aside to look at notes or a web page, and then coming back to the game. Usually when returning to SO, the page is now closed, the first selections I made are erased. I have to resort to writing everything down on paper. There should be a very practical help system built into SO that incorporates most of the forum post info. The less the newbie has to look outside the game for decision solving the more likely we are to keep plugging away. This could start with simply incorporating all the great forum content into the Help/Tip Aid so that relevant sections can be accessed on each screen of SO. The Racial Traits Customization Screen would have access to everything in the key forum articles about which Racial Traits, not just facts, but suggested buildouts.

2. CAT – Computer Assisted Tactical adviser (or some other catchy name). This is a pop-up window that makes recommendations during the game on tactics and choices, like Cortana in Halo. CAT would take the place of context sensitive help. CAT would not only provide ALL the info for making a decision, but make recommendations and ask if the user wants to implement her suggestion. An option to allow CAT in multiplayer is at the users' discretion. CAT could draw from the opponent AI currently used in SO, but instead of implementing the decision points against the user, provides the user with the info to assist against the opponent, whether AI or human. This is a common feature in chess games.

3. Speed Games – these are games that can be completed in roughly set periods of time, like 1 hour, 3 hours, etc. Players would pick how many decision points they would have, and from there CAT would take over and make all the other decisions. CAT would only stop the progress of the game when it came to another key decision point. This would give newbies and casual gamers a real since of accomplishment and create another level of strategy play that was much faster, but no less engaging. CAT could have a percentage of user agreed upon randomness so that she would make intelligent picks, but not always the same. This would allow the user to see many configurations plaid out in a much shorter period of time and may even bring to light some new approaches that medium level players had not thought of.

[Inserted on 8/28/14:
Also consider providing a Help/Tip as I suggested in item 1 in the "base price", and offer a really nice "CAT" as an in-app purchase with the additional simplified gaming styles for multiplayer SO.]

I think these changes to the game could increase the popularity of SO for newbies and casual players and create another level of game-play.

The same concepts should also be incorporated into Naval Tactics (which I've also purchased).

Thanks for your consideration of these features.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-28-2014, 05:45 AM
Post: #2
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
I like the idea of point 2! Though I have no idea how hard it would be for Roc to implement. It'd definetely help the learning curve with boxes like "Enemy fleet engaged. Configuration: Nuke 2, Heavy Armor plating; I Reccomended researching PDS and gauss 1." Smile

Though for the rest, practice, practice, practice. I never had to take notes nor have I read any guide but Anthee's (though I probably should Tongue) and that was after quite awhile of playing. Rather, what what I reccomend would be to play single player until you can beat the highest difficulty AI and then find another to newish player to be your practice buddy in Multiplayer. You both will learn from each other and get better as well as create more efficient tactics. Smile

"We're not retreating, we're simply advancing in another direction!" - Oliver P. Smith

Game Center: Troy tbUSA
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-28-2014, 06:40 AM
Post: #3
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
(08-28-2014 05:45 AM)Troy TB34 Wrote:  Though for the rest, practice, practice, practice.

Thanks for your response. I cringed at posting this, as I knew the main response would be . . . practice . . . but as SO becomes more sophisticated, there is a danger in appealing to only those who have time to practice. For the rest of use, (I'm a retired attorney who spends my days working with strategies I've programmed for trading equities, and my wife, a newly retired air traffic controller), we don't have the "drive to practice that much". If I wanted to work at it, I'd put the time into programming strategies to make real money. If the game is more difficult to play then chess, then it is too difficult for the masses. SO IMO has too steep a learning curve for the casual gamer, which is what I am. I'd like to play SO with my wife on 1v1, but there is no way she'd have the patience to learn SO, and she is 10Xs smarter than me, and plays Ipad games over 2 hours a day. I'm just suggesting that some serious effort should be put into making this polished stone appealing to the average Joe. I think there'd be a lot of money to be made.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-28-2014, 08:06 AM (This post was last modified: 08-28-2014 08:11 AM by Troy TB34.)
Post: #4
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
(08-28-2014 06:40 AM)WyLee Wrote:  
(08-28-2014 05:45 AM)Troy TB34 Wrote:  Though for the rest, practice, practice, practice.

Thanks for your response. I cringed at posting this, as I knew the main response would be . . . practice . . . but as SO becomes more sophisticated, there is a danger in appealing to only those who have time to practice. For the rest of use, (I'm a retired attorney who spends my days working with strategies I've programmed for trading equities, and my wife, a newly retired air traffic controller), we don't have the "drive to practice that much". If I wanted to work at it, I'd put the time into programming strategies to make real money. If the game is more difficult to play then chess, then it is too difficult for the masses. SO IMO has too steep a learning curve for the casual gamer, which is what I am. I'd like to play SO with my wife on 1v1, but there is no way she'd have the patience to learn SO, and she is 10Xs smarter than me, and plays Ipad games over 2 hours a day. I'm just suggesting that some serious effort should be put into making this polished stone appealing to the average Joe. I think there'd be a lot of money to be made.

As a casual gamer myself who juggles school and every extracurricular my school offers, I completely understand, it can be hard to find the time to practice but truly, the only way to get better is to play and learn from your mistakes as well as the mistakes of other. It's the same with chess, you can read every manual you want but it won't win you the game. You have to practice chess to get any good, the books just offer little tips to improve your game. Throughout military history it has been proved that the adaptive commander defeats the one who follows a set doctrine without fail. I always use the same defensive opening in chess, one I call "The White House" for the shape it takes, but after that I let my opponent determine my attack plan. Guides and hints can only give you the knowledge you need on your tools, they can't give you a sure fire plan to victory. Reading Anthee's guide I believe it gives the same message, to win you must evolve. I'm willing to go one step further and add that to learn too evolve you must gain experience. Smile

Your ideas are good, I just don't know how they could be implemented without serious thinking and over thinking. An AI aid wouldn't be much help because they aren't as powerful as your mind. If there was an AI that could adapt to any situation and give tips it would definetely be in game, but in a 4X game there are just too many possibilities for your opponent to take and too many possible counter possibilities for you to take that there isn't any real answer. What you choose to do really depends on your style and making an inference on your past experiences. If you don't want to or cant put in the time that's fine, but no AI will be able to make you as good as Anthee or New Russian. That takes time, dedication, and a human brain. If a 16 year old kid like me can do this, there's no reason why a marketing strategist like you can't as well. What you want is available, but in the form of a practicing partner, not a robot. Smile

A game more complex than chess may not be for the masses, but it is for SO's player base.

Perhaps a better idea would be a hint feature like the one in Galactic news that pops up on the empire feed every turn. Players could toggle it on/off on their profile. It would play a similar role tips on the loading screen of most console games like Call of Duty or Halo. Smile

"We're not retreating, we're simply advancing in another direction!" - Oliver P. Smith

Game Center: Troy tbUSA
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-28-2014, 11:22 AM
Post: #5
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
I agree with WyLee. Players shouldn't have to spend countless hours "practicing" in an attempt to figure out core mechanics. Practice should lend more to honing tactics and strategies, and less to figuring out why Point Defense doesn't help much against a Proton Torpedo.

The ideas you presented sound good to me. More/better in-game help has been requested many times.

While I am one of the few in the position to have a lot of time to practice and hunt around the forums for the answer to the question of how a particular game item works, and I am able to take advantage of that - I'd prefer that that information be available to me through the game screen.

I, too, wish my wife & friends would play Starbase Orion, but I don't even suggest it to her/them due to the steep learning curve.

I and others do our best to help answer questions and give advice in multiplayer games - but, again, it would be better if more core mechanics were revealed to the player via in-game help, freeing up the chat room for more discussion of advanced tactics & strategy.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-29-2014, 03:43 AM (This post was last modified: 08-29-2014 08:58 AM by WyLee.)
Post: #6
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
(08-28-2014 11:22 AM)Davabled Wrote:  I, too, wish my wife & friends would play Starbase Orion, but I don't even suggest it to her/them due to the steep learning curve.

You have better stated the point I was trying to make. I'm suggesting there is money to be made by Rocco if he would create options and ways to play that in effect make SO simpler to play, and by doing so, going after another audience, i.e., the even more casual gamer than Troy TB34. If Rocco doesn't think there's extra money to be made, by appealing to a new audience, then I'd keep everything as is.

The other evening I purchased 3 copies of 2 games, for my wife and college age daughter to play with me on our Ipads. I purchased only one copy of SO, just for me, because, like Davabled, my family/friends won't play SO due to it's steep learning curve. As I'm learning SO (and I will learn it), I keep thinking that it is a shame to have such a finely finished product - best in class, that with 2 weeks to a month of extra work (I'm guessing, depending on which approach was taken to provide in-game aid as suggested in my first post to this thread) could appeal to a whole lot more people. If such aid didn't increase the user-base, then I'd leave everything as is.

I'm not suggesting to limit the existing SO, but rather create more options and add various helps, from simple to sophisticated depending on potential for an increased market share.

[Addendum]
Also consider providing a Help/Tip as I suggested in item 1 in the "base price", and offer a really nice "CAT" as an in-app purchase with the additional simplified gaming styles for multiplayer SO.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-29-2014, 09:13 AM
Post: #7
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
(08-29-2014 03:43 AM)WyLee Wrote:  and offer a really nice "CAT" as an in-app purchase with the additional simplified gaming styles for multiplayer SO.

I can already tell you that if it happens, it won't be as an IAP. Rocco has stated a number of times in the past (and it used to be, if not still is - haven't checke explicitely stated in the app description ) that there'd never be any IAP).

If anything, something like that may end up as a candidate for SO2 since he's started working on that.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-30-2014, 03:07 AM (This post was last modified: 08-30-2014 06:07 AM by WyLee.)
Post: #8
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
(08-29-2014 09:13 AM)VanderLegion Wrote:  
(08-29-2014 03:43 AM)WyLee Wrote:  and offer a really nice "CAT" as an in-app purchase with the additional simplified gaming styles for multiplayer SO.

I can already tell you that if it happens, it won't be as an IAP. Rocco has stated ...that there'd never be any IAP). If anything ... a candidate for SO2.

Yes, I see Rocco's statement in the SO description on the app store.

FWIW, I would make SO2 modular, containing a base program with good instructions/tips, a CAT module with speed solo and multiplayer options, as I have described in the prior posts, and lose the promise of no in-app purchases. A no discount promise makes sense to assure people there is no point in waiting for a holiday sale, but I don’t see in-app purchases as being a bad thing. I see rigged game play designed to generate payment for speeding up game play to be evil incarnate, aka, COC.

All the software I work with in equity trading is modular. This allows the user to pick and choose which add-ons they want. It also creates an ongoing revenue stream for the software company. I don’t expect a software company, whether biz or game, to absorb ongoing development costs for very long, it just isn’t a sustainable business model. There has to be a version 2, 3, 4 . . . and/or a modular approach. But these are all issues for Rocco.

In reading the reviews to Clash Of Clans, and the new Star Wars Commander games, there are a lot of people that resent their pay to play model. But there is a clear market for simple strategy games. COC and Star Wars Commander have missed the mark in my opinion; as they are stupid simple and designed to frustrate the player into paying to play; so have any of the turn based strategy games that I’ve played, as they all tend to have very complex rules with poor help/tips and no AI assistance (like is provided in all chess games). I think SO2, with a CAT module could be that Goldilocks mix for the casual gamer, i.e., the COC level, and yet still have the same elements that the expert players such as yourself find so engaging about SO, and don’t want to see lost in future iterations of the game.

A big thanks to you, VanderLegion, for all your contributions to this forum. Your posts are really appreciated.

Ok, I think I've sufficiently beat this dead horse . . . move along, move along, nothing to see here.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-31-2014, 01:30 AM
Post: #9
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
The first idea of more in game help is great. Maybe find a way to salvage and update the deleted starbase orion wiki, and put it in the game so people know there's an instruction manuel. Or just gather the FAQs and quickstart posts and organize them so there's an in game manuel-with hyperlinks. I'm pretty sure no one here would mind some "plagiarism," though having to update the game help following patches would slow down updates.

Similarly, the second idea isn't bad, but I would definitely want to be able quickly to disable it. Honestly I figured out the basics of the game through the "my first game" followed by playing the Ai with increasing difficulties, and searching the forums before honing my skills in multiplayer. Having played similiar games it wasn't too hard to grasp, and most of the remaining "confusion" was gone after three games or so. Jumping to online multiplayer without figuring it out first will always be suicide, and would probably be inconsiderate to some some bored veterans since there is (to my knowledge) no rank-matching system to pair beginners, with or without CAT. Because long-term players can beat the Ai fairly easily at the moment, (particularly without bonuses), suggestions based on Ai logic would be of extremely limited use in multiplayer. There really can be no shortcut to playing well at multiplayer other than experience and experimentation, although reading the forums helps.

( @Op, never underestimate a kid! Your kid would probably have more free time and being a kid be able to figure out the basics very quickly.). There are some enigmatic mechanics that could be better explained without having to go online, such as how the ship targeting works, or how population growth works with mixed races and different planet types, or how range in combat is separate from damage at the various ranges, but I wouldn't want to overwhelm the beginner with annoying popups either. Popups always make me feel....stupid, like I'm being forced to listen to a lecture in school.

I actually appreciated how this game quickly threw me into the fry to figure things out without long and boring tutorials. In the gaming world tutorials are just copying single steps and since they are carefully scripted, there is neither a choice nor fear of failure.

You could probably have some of the pop-ups appear at the top when you start a turn as usual, only highlighted in yellow and when you click on them a suggestion appears. I think the third idea about having an ai advance for you would be the source of a ton of mishaps and grief in multiplayer, when the ai does dumb things like sending your fleet and all your troop ships at a starbase 10 turns away to be destroyed just because you were afk. Other players would probably feel cheated at not having a human opponent, and only someone pretending to be human too.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-31-2014, 02:55 PM
Post: #10
RE: Feature Request: Tip'Help Aid, CAT, Speed Game
(08-31-2014 01:30 AM)Sanbi Wrote:  ...since there is (to my knowledge) no rank-matching system to pair beginners, with or without CAT.

This is true, though to be fair, I'd bet most veterans don't use the auto-match games much. I know I don't. I mostly just play games against other veterans and friends I've made in game over the years since it released. That and the league and occasional tournaments give a number of options for games without matchmaking against random opponents of unknown skill level.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | Starbase Orion | Return to Top | Return to Content | Lite (Archive) Mode | RSS Syndication