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Tech builds too powerful?
11-21-2014, 04:22 AM
Post: #1
Tech builds too powerful?
I really like the introduction of Robust Techies and Interspecies Medical Network, but I believe they may have made the game favor pure research builds too much, especially on . Ideally, evenly matched players should be able to have an equal shot at victory. Currently, an industry/blitz type build does not have much of a shot, partly because medical network makes old fashioned easy to take, and partly because robust techies is much more powerful (20% of tech transferred to industry bonus) than tinkers (one to one equivalency - each worker devoted to industry produces one research point). Since robust techies is a percentage, new techs and racial traits boost industry production considerably, whereas tinkers gets no boost.

I would recommend:

1) either nerfing techies (down to 10%, perhaps) or making tinkers better (turning it into a percentage, for example)

2) either moving medical network up the tech tree or reducing its ceiling to 50k rather than 100k

Thoughts?

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11-21-2014, 06:03 AM
Post: #2
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
I agree Techies is too good at 20%. 10% is what it was at first and that would be fine if we stick to a percentage, 15% at most.

Disagree about IMN making Old Fashioned too good. It takes a while to get to fast growth with only IMN even if you play a SI science build: in my recent experience, dropping BR for Fertile Biology instead of Old Fashioned is worth it, which goes to show the importance of early growth and well-used civic funding.

Industry should have the edge on small to medium size maps: that is a sign of proper trait balancing. If they had the edge on big maps too (despite lots of time for R&D), that would be a sign of industry being too powerful. Science consistently beating industry on small to medium size maps would indicate the opposite, and although more testing is required there, it seems as if that might be the case now, meaning science in general might be in need of a nerf.

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11-21-2014, 06:41 AM
Post: #3
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
This is why, if we go with just one map for season 4 of the Orion League, I would want a size and composition that require players to make a tough choice between industry and science. Don't think any update is coming in the near future.

Good feedback on my post, Anthee. Thanks!

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11-21-2014, 06:47 AM
Post: #4
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(11-21-2014 06:41 AM)Siramnes Wrote:  This is why, if we go with just one map for season 4 of the Orion League, I would want a size and composition that require players to make a tough choice between industry and science. Don't think any update is coming in the near future.

After this season of the league ends, I will do another rebalancing patch which data mines the 2v2 & 1v1 league games to guide any changes.

If I read the tea leaves right, that probably means sometime in January/February?
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11-23-2014, 01:32 AM
Post: #5
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(11-21-2014 04:22 AM)Siramnes Wrote:  .
...
I would recommend:

1) either nerfing techies (down to 10%, perhaps) or making tinkers better (turning it into a percentage, for example)

2) either moving medical network up the tech tree or reducing its ceiling to 50k rather than 100k

Thoughts?
I agree with #1.
Think #2 is ok as is. Taking medical means you have to give up some other important early astro tech.. Also, as Anthee said, you don't reach the 100k limit early.
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11-24-2014, 05:42 AM
Post: #6
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
Just a thought, but instead of nerfing science, I would suggest making tinkers have a better science bonus. In my industry builds, maybe I'm missing something, but tech just seems too hard to come by.

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11-24-2014, 03:25 PM
Post: #7
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
Not a good idea IMO. It might make industry vs science balanced but then you'd have two imbalanced traits instead of one. Every player would be forced to pick one of them in order to remain competitive. We want individual traits to be balanced too.

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11-25-2014, 01:47 PM
Post: #8
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
I agree with Anthee here. We also need to think about traits, such as proficient farmers, that either cost too much or are too weak. I can't think of a single player in any of the top divisions who spends points on farming, even in team games when pop sharing is possible. If it is going to stay like this we might as well just start with 13 points and skip the whole farming question. Now, if farming only cost 2 points and 4 points, or if inadequate only bought you 2 points, it might be harder to pass by.

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11-25-2014, 03:49 PM
Post: #9
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
That would be a great tweak! Other tweaks which I think would be good:

- Make LGA -3 instead of -2.
- Make Medium HW -3 instead of -2.
- Make Charismatic cost only 1 point.
- Already mentioned above, but nerf Robust Techies down to 15% or 10%.

And regarding buildings, Orbital Labs need a complete overhaul. +10% to science from a tech that costs 1700 RP is laughable: compare to Sanctioned Sports which costs 1000 RP and gives +20% not just to science but to industry and farming as well. And Orbital Labs appear so late in the game anyway that they don't even get to pay back their RP cost.

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11-26-2014, 06:17 AM
Post: #10
RE: Tech builds too powerful?
(11-25-2014 03:49 PM)anthee Wrote:  That would be a great tweak! Other tweaks which I think would be good:

- Make LGA -3 instead of -2.
- Make Medium HW -3 instead of -2.
- Make Charismatic cost only 1 point.
- Already mentioned above, but nerf Robust Techies down to 15% or 10%.

And regarding buildings, Orbital Labs need a complete overhaul. +10% to science from a tech that costs 1700 RP is laughable: compare to Sanctioned Sports which costs 1000 RP and gives +20% not just to science but to industry and farming as well. And Orbital Labs appear so late in the game anyway that they don't even get to pay back their RP cost.

-I can't speak to Low Gravity Affinity, but it might be worth looking into
-Medium Homeworld at -3 instead of -2 makes most sense with normal empire age, where it hurts the most, and also especially since it also means starting with less population, so I am in favor of your suggestion
-Charasmatic at 1 point would be a great step towards making a spying race viable
-Robust Techies should be decreased, probably to 10%, but...
-Orbital Labs 1/2 - I suggest keeping them the same, but a) include them into the Robust Techies equation, and b) have them also reduce the cost of passed techs by 5%/10%, non-cumulative
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