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Spying needs adjusting
11-17-2015, 11:19 AM
Post: #11
RE: Spying needs adjusting
It is very possible to be quickly tore apart by spying

w0we xd
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11-17-2015, 06:18 PM
Post: #12
RE: Spying needs adjusting
(11-16-2015 04:25 AM)rocco Wrote:  
(11-16-2015 03:21 AM)Janster Wrote:  Mr X should have some buddies so that he doesn't become the wild card he is.

Since you haven't mentioned it, I feel I should mention Fve Bgeep as a defensive measure against espionage. Complete immunity for a system, the fleets in orbit about that system, and any leaders stationed at that system (your stuff, not your allies).

Any thought given to a true anti-spy leader? One that basically nerfs X in some fashion and who refuses to work for the empire that currently employs X.

In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments; there are consequences.
- Robert Green Ingersoll, lawyer and orator (1833-1899)
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11-18-2015, 01:32 AM
Post: #13
RE: Spying needs adjusting
(11-17-2015 06:18 PM)ArlyB Wrote:  Any thought given to a true anti-spy leader? One that basically nerfs X in some fashion and who refuses to work for the empire that currently employs X.

No. We're past the point that I want to be adding brand new content into SO1. For SO1 there are currently lots of ways to deal with spying, and there is the banning system so if you don't want to play against X you don't have to. And if it turns out spying needs a overall nerf, there's plenty of options to do that.

Spying in SO2 is fundamentally different, so SO1 discussions don't really apply it.
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11-18-2015, 01:51 AM
Post: #14
RE: Spying needs adjusting
With this version the intention was to make spying a viable alternative. Before it was a nuisance, added dimension, but was not a way to win.

In order to be pulling off 3 hits/turn, I'd imagine that you would need 50 or so spies, cloaking, SCIF, charismatic, probably smugglers, fuel cell 2 or so, and probably star drive 2 to keep your SCIF frigates moving and resetting. And ideally, Leader X. And your opponent would need to most likely have 2 spies, no colony security, and poor star drive/fuel cell capability (and is probably repulsive)

That is a huge investment. Just building 50 spies requires the same effort as building 9 destroyers or 25 or so frigates. Plus 6 trait points vs repulsive.

If someone came at you with a fleet of 9 destroyers at a fairly early level, and you only had 4 frigates, you'd be caught with your pants down and lose.

How is this different? You failed to determine and counter your opponents highly specialized strategy, and they went all-in, surprised you, and you suffer the consequences.

What were you doing with all that time leading up to the 50 spies and all that specialized research? Building colony ships? Researching Terraforming and making pretty planets for their future owners?

I could see Leader X being divided into two leaders. One with the spying/hiding benefits, the other with the fleet composition knowledge. Either one is worth fighting hard to get X. But countering X with an anti-X specific leader? That shifts the blame on losing due to spying back on external factors. Chance. Bad luck.

I think if you look at it, internal factors (i.e., you making poor choices given the opponents strategy) can account for most of the reasons that spy builds are successful. Spying is a strategy, but there are counter-strategies.

It appears that there has been a bit of a paradigm shift that people need to adjust to. You can lose (or win) by blitzing, researching, and now spying. This was one of the goals of this release.

As Roc said, the stats on what people actually are using will also help tweak the next build. Perhaps only 2 spy events/turn will be sufficient to still make spying a viable strategy. At 1/turn, it wasn't.

For now, consider storing industry on a couple of planets. When you finally meet your opponent and see their build, and figure out that they are all-in on spying, put 3 or so planets with stored industry on building a spy/turn, and keep a good sweep of nearby SCIF ships. If they are blitzing, turn that stored industry into ships. You can always salvage ships that are getting blown up anyway at a starbase and turn them into spies.
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11-18-2015, 04:46 AM
Post: #15
RE: Spying needs adjusting
(11-15-2015 12:42 PM)Janster Wrote:  I got more than 70 spies, and it sure as heck isn putting a dent in anything.

Problem is more than this, a spy build seems to need to be countered early, even before contact, as on contact you will get the hurt put on you, I literally can't keep ships alive to even hunt for ships.

I don't mind the spying as a mechanic, but it can't be a game ender in itself. In the game mentioned earlier I failed at stopping you from getting mr X, so I knew it would be bad, but it's counter is impossible to build anything, you are almost completely locked down.

If you have 70 spies and it's not slowing down their spying, it means they probably have personal cloaking (and possibly X), in which case you need CSF to counter it.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
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11-18-2015, 04:52 AM (This post was last modified: 11-18-2015 05:06 AM by Sanbi.)
Post: #16
RE: Spying needs adjusting
I actually didn't take smugglers because it was more points on a massive galaxy. I actually find it a less risky (as in specialized strategy) to build more scif ships with fuel cell and park them just out of range (fuel cell lets you explore aggressively too.)

For anyone that is curious about our game/builds and how he might have turned it around, I'll talk about our strategies in depth. Early on I went for fuel cell and more scif ships (I skipped Stardrive out of desperation, although I later found it on a derelict ship and also stole it.) If he had researched stardrive beyond me and tried to melt my frigates I might have had problems had he counter attacked me with tyro (who he had won, but dismissed when I bid on x. That later allowed me to bid on tyro, amass a fleet at x's homeworld, and then surprise him at an unguarded planet despite my slow ships.)

When I started the game with op, I wasnt fully comitted to a spy build. I took charistmatic because its powerful to I have the option, and there is a world of difference between not taking charismatic and not taking it. The extra leader and the potential strategies it gives you make it a must have trait in most games, imo. (Btw, you should either go repulsive or go charistmatic, and forego the middle ground. An extra spy hit +leader is too good to pass up.)

My traits were borderline genius, amazing industrialists, persnickety, prosperous businessmen, charismatic, old fashioned, inadequate farmers, (I skipped galactic navigators), poor homeworld, medium homeworld. My opponent took money lenders, huge homeworld, fertile biology, shared intelligence, slow as sloths, and repulsive.

My basic idea was I could switch to any strategy depending on what my opponent had, except that I had half the citizens. His strategy was to build a huge population that could used shared intel to offset the lackluster science/production traits, (might be a decent idea on a massive map), and on the way make a ton of gold in taxes per citizen to win auctions.

My initial strategy was to go for fuel cell and trade port early, explore, win some important leaders, and react to my opponent's build. Amazing industrialists and charismatic were what ultimately saved me. According to the graphs my opponent used moneylenders to rush production early on, because his production was so low, while my production for the first half was steady/more efficient. But he also took trade port, and had way more gold than I could handle, and could win any single auction.

The reason he lost X is I had just given up on a bidding war that cost him about 2000 gold (with both of us on economic funding) in which he won xin rek, tyro and cerebrum (we both had exopolitics), and then X suddenly appeared leaving my funds comparatively higher. When I gathered intel and saw his funds were lower than mine, I bid high enough (600) that he couldnt match it, and set my spies to disrupt empire on the last turns (they stole 200 gold) to make it impossible for him to catch up in time. I then won tyro, (in addition to rogue captain, the termite, and the farmer.)

In hindsight he probably just didnt save enough money in advance to win X. If I had lost X, or he had kept my puny scif ships at bay, I might have well lost the game. He could have used X to protect cerebrum, outresearch me, and shared intel + xin rek + fertile biology meant his economy would be stronger in the late game.
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11-18-2015, 09:38 AM
Post: #17
RE: Spying needs adjusting
That's a nice writeup, I wasn't aware at time of bidding what build you had, as we really hadnt met, I was expanding slowly towards center, but didnt want to initiate, incase you were a) spy build or b) rush build.
When we went into a bidding war, your hard bids for certain chars made me suspect you had something else, however in regards of spy builds, just having charismatic is enough to be considered a spy build, and you can still add a lot ontop of that.

Once you got Mr X I knew I was in for a world of hurt, so I started building spies hard core to prevent a complete system failure, it was in this I started wondering what was going on, while I don't mind spying being a thing, it's clear with Mr X it becomes a monster that is almost unbeatable as I could not from that point onwards do anything but build spies and watch my empire crumble. After building over 50 spies I was still getting 3 events a turn, leading me to believe there was nothing I could do.

I find this part of the game a bit over the top, I think I should be loosing spies, and being forced to hard core build them, but that to watch 50 plus spies have no effect, means its better to spambuild ships and hope for the best rather than to mount a spy defense at all, and even then, getting any ships built at all might be hard case.

As for the suggestions above, I think no more heroes should be introduced, but rather maybe some more of the existing ones should have small spying added, like say the Cat with the missiles, his ultimate is worthless now, he could easily have something else.

Give me a module to make my ships more resilient and a few heroes that might make just that ship immune to being taken down by a spy.

I'm not going to begrudge you the victory, it was a good match, I just think that in itself, spying should not be able to tear down empires so quickly, its just too strong and this post is only dealing with the 1v1 ascpect, in a FFA larger match, I think its almost mandatory now.
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11-18-2015, 09:18 PM
Post: #18
RE: Spying needs adjusting
Did some further testing, he was charismatic, I was not, I took X , he build 20 spies and I built 20, with scif he destroyed or permanently crippled my fleet within rounds, I literally could not fly anywhere, I was left unable to even fly ships to my burrow where I had some hope of mounting a defence.


I suggests that events, amount and severity be increased so that contact rating isn't the only factor, also spies should die more frequently.

Thanks
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11-19-2015, 01:53 AM
Post: #19
RE: Spying needs adjusting
(11-18-2015 09:18 PM)Janster Wrote:  Did some further testing, he was charismatic, I was not, I took X , he build 20 spies and I built 20, with scif he destroyed or permanently crippled my fleet within rounds, I literally could not fly anywhere, I was left unable to even fly ships to my burrow where I had some hope of mounting a defence.


I suggests that events, amount and severity be increased so that contact rating isn't the only factor, also spies should die more frequently.

Thanks


As I asked earlier, please submit this game as a bug report so I can confirm the numbers.
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11-21-2015, 05:38 AM (This post was last modified: 11-21-2015 05:38 AM by Sanbi.)
Post: #20
RE: Spying needs adjusting
Had a game where my opponent's spies blew up my 1200 production cruiser the turn after I built it. A tip for countering millitary destruction to build a ton of smaller ships - destroyers or scouts, and move them separately to reduce the chance of your big expensive ships being sabotaged/delayed on a given turn. (He also stole about a thousand gold, or half of it, in one spy event.)
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