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Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
03-18-2016, 05:13 PM (This post was last modified: 03-18-2016 06:10 PM by ArlyB.)
Post: #11
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
(03-18-2016 03:56 PM)rocco Wrote:  I think the posed question is implying the opposite; could wormholes be implemented in such a manner as to preserve the balance of a "balanced" galactic map. In SO1, wormholes are generated from the same star in an empires mirrored slice of the galaxy, but then travel to a random star in the middle, "neutral zone" of randomly generated stars. Hence, one player's wormhole could wind up going to a gaia planet, while another player's goes to a system with no planets.

The lack of a wormhole option for competitive matches provides a polarization of racial choices; if its a small map go production & blitz, if its a bigger map maybe go research, etc. Naturally occurring, but balanced, wormholes help shake things up by decreasing the relative size of the galactic map, providing the possibility of introducing different strategies in maps otherwise not conducive to them

The nature of wormholes seems to me to be to speed up the game thereby encouraging blitz strategies and discouraging research-based ones. Research strategies tend to want to keep their distance from the enemy, not invite them into their underbelly. So wormholes actually act, in my opinion, as a strategy limiting option and not as an option that expands player strategies.

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03-19-2016, 02:08 AM
Post: #12
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
(03-18-2016 05:13 PM)ArlyB Wrote:  The nature of wormholes seems to me to be to speed up the game thereby encouraging blitz strategies and discouraging research-based ones. Research strategies tend to want to keep their distance from the enemy, not invite them into their underbelly. So wormholes actually act, in my opinion, as a strategy limiting option and not as an option that expands player strategies.

Again, point to topic of discussion, how could wormholes be implemented which encourage both?
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03-19-2016, 11:32 PM
Post: #13
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
Some thoughts:

1. Instead of designing a whole random galaxy, then cookie-cutting it to shapes, design 1/8 galaxies and copy them so each portion has the exact same configuration (in balanced). This would help with in general, but also specifically with wormholes, especially if:

2. Wormholes are "linked" to the other side because the systems are duplicate systems. Only allow wormholes to link to exact copy systems. This prevents one side having a wormhole to an empty system, and the other side being able to wormhole directly into a habitable system.

3. To slow down the use of wormholes (and blitzers), maybe add a requirement for use. Put a Crystal monster in each wormhole (they are attracted to them?). Or maybe make a technological requirement needed to use them. Maybe Fuel Cell 3 includes the tech necessary to see far enough down the wormhole to know it is safe to travel. Could even take it a step further, and you can use a wormhole before Fuel 3. If you only have Fuel 1, there is a 50% chance each ship is destroyed. If you have Fuel 2, there is a 25% chance for destruction. Or go to FC4, and make the penalty 75-50-25%. It would be worth sending a scout through, but not an armada until you were had the tech.
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03-21-2016, 01:45 AM
Post: #14
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
(03-19-2016 11:32 PM)Diebo Wrote:  1. Instead of designing a whole random galaxy, then cookie-cutting it to shapes, design 1/8 galaxies and copy them so each portion has the exact same configuration (in balanced). This would help with in general

This is how it works now, with the exception of the randomized "neutral zone". The question of whether there should be a randomized center in balanced games is another question, I suppose!


Quote:3. To slow down the use of wormholes (and blitzers), maybe add a requirement for use. Put a Crystal monster in each wormhole (they are attracted to them?). Or maybe make a technological requirement needed to use them. Maybe Fuel Cell 3 includes the tech necessary to see far enough down the wormhole to know it is safe to travel. Could even take it a step further, and you can use a wormhole before Fuel 3. If you only have Fuel 1, there is a 50% chance each ship is destroyed. If you have Fuel 2, there is a 25% chance for destruction. Or go to FC4, and make the penalty 75-50-25%. It would be worth sending a scout through, but not an armada until you were had the tech.

Yeah, ideas like this I think are interesting. I also thought up adding a specific tech to allow for wormhole travel (I was thinking a new tech, not as an added affect to existing tech).

A few more ideas:

1) introduce the concept of a "stable" wormhole and an "unstable" wormhole. Or maybe a wormholes fluctuate between periods of stability and not; a stable wormhole allows for safe travel, whereas travel through an unstable wormhole and things could go... horrible wrong. Either ships getting destroyed (as above), or you end up in a different destination, or something.

2) what if wormholes were not connections between two stars, but instead were entrances into a network which connected all wormholes (as in Farscape). Entering one wormhole will pop you out at any other random wormhole, unless you develop technology to navigate the wormholes and choose your destination.
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03-22-2016, 03:08 AM
Post: #15
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
(03-21-2016 01:45 AM)rocco Wrote:  
(03-19-2016 11:32 PM)Diebo Wrote:  1. Instead of designing a whole random galaxy, then cookie-cutting it to shapes, design 1/8 galaxies and copy them so each portion has the exact same configuration (in balanced). This would help with in general

This is how it works now, with the exception of the randomized "neutral zone". The question of whether there should be a randomized center in balanced games is another question, I suppose!

I've lost more than one game league game due to imbalance in the neutral zone. Opponent has huge rich terran for example. I'd vote to keep it exact duplicate unless you choose random. Also, in spirals the outer edge isn't always a duplicate, which also can be important in league games. I am not sure what algorithm is used.

(03-21-2016 01:45 AM)rocco Wrote:  
(03-19-2016 11:32 PM)Diebo Wrote:  3. To slow down the use of wormholes (and blitzers), maybe add a requirement for use. Put a Crystal monster in each wormhole (they are attracted to them?). Or maybe make a technological requirement needed to use them. Maybe Fuel Cell 3 includes the tech necessary to see far enough down the wormhole to know it is safe to travel. Could even take it a step further, and you can use a wormhole before Fuel 3. If you only have Fuel 1, there is a 50% chance each ship is destroyed. If you have Fuel 2, there is a 25% chance for destruction. Or go to FC4, and make the penalty 75-50-25%. It would be worth sending a scout through, but not an armada until you were had the tech.

Yeah, ideas like this I think are interesting. I also thought up adding a specific tech to allow for wormhole travel (I was thinking a new tech, not as an added affect to existing tech).

A few more ideas:

1) introduce the concept of a "stable" wormhole and an "unstable" wormhole. Or maybe a wormholes fluctuate between periods of stability and not; a stable wormhole allows for safe travel, whereas travel through an unstable wormhole and things could go... horrible wrong. Either ships getting destroyed (as above), or you end up in a different destination, or something.

2) what if wormholes were not connections between two stars, but instead were entrances into a network which connected all wormholes (as in Farscape). Entering one wormhole will pop you out at any other random wormhole, unless you develop technology to navigate the wormholes and choose your destination.

Another option: you reach your wormhole destination, but instead of arriving in one turn, you have a chance that your ship arrives slower? (And morph can't reach to redirect). Could be random.

If you wanted to drop realism, and instead focus on game pacing/play, you could have the wormholes move at drive 1 speed for the first 30 turns, drive 2 turns 30-60, drive 3 at 60-90, drive 4 at 90-120 (regardless of your drive tech), and warp after 120. They still provide a benefit (of expanding your view/reach) but wouldn't serve as early-game blitzing platforms.

I prefer things you can plan for rather than random events.
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03-22-2016, 03:56 AM
Post: #16
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
(03-22-2016 03:08 AM)Diebo Wrote:  Another option: you reach your wormhole destination, but instead of arriving in one turn, you have a chance that your ship arrives slower? (And morph can't reach to redirect). Could be random.

If you wanted to drop realism, and instead focus on game pacing/play, you could have the wormholes move at drive 1 speed for the first 30 turns, drive 2 turns 30-60, drive 3 at 60-90, drive 4 at 90-120 (regardless of your drive tech), and warp after 120. They still provide a benefit (of expanding your view/reach) but wouldn't serve as early-game blitzing platforms.

I like it. You can still get into the middle of the map, but now on a huge map, you could be looking at a lot of turns to actually GET to the other side of the wormhole if you want to take advantage of it.

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03-22-2016, 07:45 AM
Post: #17
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
(03-22-2016 03:08 AM)Diebo Wrote:  I've lost more than one game league game due to imbalance in the neutral zone. Opponent has huge rich terran for example. I'd vote to keep it exact duplicate unless you choose random. Also, in spirals the outer edge isn't always a duplicate, which also can be important in league games. I am not sure what algorithm is used.

Well, i never said it was without bugs Cool If I recall, there are constraints that the old system needed to adhere to which could lead to a duplicate system getting dropped for being breaking those constraints.

As far as the gooey center, it often affects smaller maps proportionally more than larger maps, where the edge of the NZ butts right up against the starting zones. The main appeal of the gooey center is it encourages exploration, as the center has things which are not duplicated.

Either way, will note it down. Probably it will become a third option: "Balanced", "Random", and "Classic" / "Mixed".

(03-19-2016 11:32 PM)Diebo Wrote:  If you wanted to drop realism, and instead focus on game pacing/play, you could have the wormholes move at drive 1 speed for the first 30 turns, drive 2 turns 30-60, drive 3 at 60-90, drive 4 at 90-120 (regardless of your drive tech), and warp after 120. They still provide a benefit (of expanding your view/reach) but wouldn't serve as early-game blitzing platforms.

Good idea; I'd rather tie it to some tech to at least give a nod to realism. So wormholes are treacherous and you need to take it slow to be safe without said tech, and with the tech they become increasingly safer/faster.
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09-07-2016, 06:35 AM
Post: #18
RE: Starbase Orion 2 dev blog?
Any dev blog on the horizon?
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