Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
04-17-2012, 04:42 PM
Post: #31
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
(04-17-2012 03:05 PM)elph Wrote:  How it works now it seams, if I see a missile fleet, I'll retro fit my ships accordingly. If openant sees lots of ECM/PDS, they retrofit away from projectiles. But the way retrofitting works now, it takes a long time to retrofit a fleet fast enough with the few good producing planets one does have. Then you're loosing out on all the ships you could have been building instead of retrofitting.

As I understand it, you don't have to lose out on producing new ships while you are retrofitting. You're still building up new production through the process due to production spillover. So say you have a ship which takes six turns to build. You could retrofit one ship each turn while building up production for that ship (assuming the retrofit ship has the same production cost as the dismantled ship for this example), and when enough production for the new ship is gathered it would be produced as well. You can leave out a retrofit on that turn to have it on time, or keep retrofitting and have it merge with all the other production turning into a new ship at the end. So no real loss at all. Just possible location and time inconvenience.

GCID: Bruin; Sandbox: Bru-test-in
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-17-2012, 04:50 PM
Post: #32
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
(04-17-2012 04:42 PM)Bruin Wrote:  
(04-17-2012 03:05 PM)elph Wrote:  How it works now it seams, if I see a missile fleet, I'll retro fit my ships accordingly. If openant sees lots of ECM/PDS, they retrofit away from projectiles. But the way retrofitting works now, it takes a long time to retrofit a fleet fast enough with the few good producing planets one does have. Then you're loosing out on all the ships you could have been building instead of retrofitting.

As I understand it, you don't have to lose out on producing new ships while you are retrofitting. You're still building up new production through the process due to production spillover. So say you have a ship which takes six turns to build. You could retrofit one ship each turn while building up production for that ship (assuming the retrofit ship has the same production cost as the dismantled ship for this example), and when enough production for the new ship is gathered it would be produced as well. You can leave out a retrofit on that turn to have it on time, or keep retrofitting and have it merge with all the other production turning into a new ship at the end. So no real loss at all. Just possible location and time inconvenience.

The loss of production on new ships comes in when you're upgrading to new weapons or adding new systems. If you're upgrading to higher ranks of the same weapons, the ship'll actually get cheaper, so you lose nothing, and actually gain a bit. If you add systems, upgrade systems to new ranks (since they get more expensive), or upgrade weapons (say lasers to IPC, or nukes to plasma), the new ships can cost significantly more production than the ones you scrap, making it take several turns after scrapping to actually put out the new ship. At that point, you hvae to decide if you'd rather get new ships that take a bit longer, or keep the same number of ships but make them better.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-17-2012, 05:02 PM
Post: #33
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
ECM is calculated and PBS ignores successfully jammed missiles. Easy way to test that is play a game vs AI. They love nuke 1's for some reason.

GC - Sarducar_Dun
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-17-2012, 06:14 PM
Post: #34
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
(04-17-2012 04:50 PM)VanderLegion Wrote:  The loss of production on new ships comes in when you're upgrading to new weapons or adding new systems. If you're upgrading to higher ranks of the same weapons, the ship'll actually get cheaper, so you lose nothing, and actually gain a bit. If you add systems, upgrade systems to new ranks (since they get more expensive), or upgrade weapons (say lasers to IPC, or nukes to plasma), the new ships can cost significantly more production than the ones you scrap, making it take several turns after scrapping to actually put out the new ship. At that point, you hvae to decide if you'd rather get new ships that take a bit longer, or keep the same number of ships but make them better.

Yeah. I must have misunderstood him. It sounded (perhaps because I should be sleeping now) like he was concerned that upgrading his fleet would otherwise delay new ships, but I can see how what he wrote would apply directly to what you said and that would make more sense from a more experienced player.

GCID: Bruin; Sandbox: Bru-test-in
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-19-2012, 02:28 PM
Post: #35
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
I had an interesting thought; should ion cannons and proton torpedoes be given a stacking penalty?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Post: #36
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
(04-19-2012 02:28 PM)rocco Wrote:  I had an interesting thought; should ion cannons and proton torpedoes be given a stacking penalty?

For proton torpedoes I would argue no. They're already made all but useless by ECM, if you add a stacking penalty there'll be pretty much no reason at all to use them (I don't know that I've ever mixed 1 or 2 missile weapons on a ship along with other weapons like the AI will). The advantage of missile weapons is that you can do a lot of damage with them really fast to get the kills. If you don't have a critical mass of them, then you just run out of ammo and now have less total weapons to do damage with.

If ECM gets nerfed with a stacking penalty and/or reduced effectiveness, then it might not be as bad.

For Ion Cannons - as much as I don't like the thought of my beloved IPC3 being nerfed, I think it could work. As long as it's not a straight 2x stacking penalty like Armor and Bulkheads - with the already high cost of IPC compared to other weapons (besides torpedoes), it would barely be worth equipping more than one. I think perhaps for IPC the stacking penalty could be related to ship size.

Perhaps For a destroyer, you get a penalty for equipping more than 1, for a cruiser or battleship penalty for equipping more than 2, titan more than 3, mammoth more than 4. That would let you equip about a third of your slots with IPC without penalty, then the penalty would kick in after that.

I'm still not sure if it should be 2x penalty, maybe each one after that is 50% more expensive than the last? Would still allow adding a couple extra before the expense gets to be TOO high.

Another interesting idea would be if you researched Warlord Overhaul 2 it would allow you to equip an additional one before the stacking penalty kicks in. Now that I think of it, the same thing could be done for Pacifist Overhaul - either set it up so you can equip any one extra system that would otherwise get a penalty for the normal price, or maybe even 1 extra of each system before the penalties kick in.

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-19-2012, 03:05 PM
Post: #37
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
(04-19-2012 02:50 PM)VanderLegion Wrote:  If ECM gets nerfed with a stacking penalty and/or reduced effectiveness, then it might not be as bad.

Ooops, forgot to add that to the whipping post. ECM has a 2x stacking penalty in the latest build that just went out.

(04-19-2012 02:50 PM)VanderLegion Wrote:  I'm still not sure if it should be 2x penalty, maybe each one after that is 50% more expensive than the last? Would still allow adding a couple extra before the expense gets to be TOO high.

Agreed, wasn't thinking the full 2x. My thought was that stacking penalties inherently work well over ship sizes (as the bigger ships have more slots than the smaller ships).

(04-19-2012 02:50 PM)VanderLegion Wrote:  Another interesting idea would be if you researched Warlord Overhaul 2 it would allow you to equip an additional one before the stacking penalty kicks in. Now that I think of it, the same thing could be done for Pacifist Overhaul - either set it up so you can equip any one extra system that would otherwise get a penalty for the normal price, or maybe even 1 extra of each system before the penalties kick in.

That is a good idea.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-19-2012, 03:59 PM
Post: #38
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
Great. A stacking penalty for ECM. Vanderlegion is already scary enough with his missile boats. The ECM was the only effective method of countering that.

*****
Though we are not now that strength that in
Old days moved earth and heaven
That which we are, we are
One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield
-------
GC: engineeredguy2 GCS: StandAlone-SB
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-19-2012, 04:04 PM
Post: #39
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
(04-19-2012 03:59 PM)StandAlone Wrote:  Great. A stacking penalty for ECM. Vanderlegion is already scary enough with his missile boats. The ECM was the only effective method of countering that.

Don't expect missile boats to come from me a lot. I mainly just wanted to test em out to see how it worked with a research build in the new version. I actually have a live game going I decided to try it out first, then beta come out and I started it up there. Even with the stacking penalty on ECM, between that and PDS it's too easy to counter missiles and nukes if you know it's coming (though at least now they should still be feasible), so I wouldn't want to use it all the time.

That's not to say I might not decide to do it in an occasional game...

GC ID - VanderLegion, GMT-9. Sandbox GC ID (Beta) - VanderLegion
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-19-2012, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 04-19-2012 05:57 PM by General_Grr.)
Post: #40
RE: v1.1.3 Weapon Damage Modifiers Feedback
So far in my 8-10 beta games, everyone have been using nukes instead of Laser 3. I think that is an indication of what people think is more effective or maybe Laser 3 just got too expensive to reserach?

I have yet to play a game when I get Proton Torpedos, ECM or IPC so can't comment on that....my games are always concluded before that.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 10 Guest(s)

Contact Us | Starbase Orion | Return to Top | Return to Content | Lite (Archive) Mode | RSS Syndication